Note Displacement, Holding Back And Odd Meters

[Tbirdbassist]

My drummer has INCREDIBLE time, been playing all his life
(He's 19 now) and now studies jazz in school. Whether it be on the 1 or off it... which leads me to my problem.

When we play he does a lot of note displacement. Listen to the jam titled "Low B of Death" (all those recordings recorded with a cell phone so don't mind the distortion, drums come in around 2:21), to see what I mean.

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I think the best example of what he does starts at 11:40 of the aforementioned track.


As a bassist advancing from beginner on... we are told usually to follow the drums as the drums keep time. However in my case I can't always do that because he'll start the hi hats on the 16th after 1 as apposed to on the 1 or dropping the snare first before any other symbal/drum on "a" (ya know, 1 e and a 2 e and a 3...)... simple things like that just throw me off.

Part of the problem is because out of all my 10 years of playing, I never played with a metronome and never really did/want to/could sit down and practiced for hours like some guys, I'm getting into the habit of just whenever I'm around a bass to play it, and with a metronome. And it's slowly getting better.

But the whole displacement thing just blows my mind sometimes! Such a simple thing as holding back a little bit or accenting something you normally, and naturally wouldn't, will drastically change how something sounds.


Applying this to odd meter's and holding back notes (meaning playing the note as late as possible before it's off time) things really get hairy if you aren't in time. You can easily make it sound horrible or without realizing it fall back into what you were originally what you were playing when you were intending to play the displaced version.


Does anyone here practice this and have any tips? Other than metronome training, or is it just simply that?

I believe that my drummer does so well with it because it's a drummers job to keep the overall time. In order to do that, at least I think, you should be aware of every last note, every beat, every 1/8 note, every 1/16 note, every 1/4 note etc... Not something we as bass players are taught to study, even though we probably should.

I've never had a proper and am all self taught. While I think I'm a very good bassist, I feel I need a LOT of work, haha. I'm glad I'm still young @22... but it's certainly proving difficult to get into something I should have already been in to!!!

So again, any advice/experiences you've had, please share!

[blakelock]

hey tbird,

i like the jam
you both sound like you're having a good time and i dug it. i'm only an intermediate player so take my comments with a bowl of salt, but i think both your and the drummer's timing could use some work. just throwing my 2cents out there. when people say "timing" they usually mean being able to keep a steady pace through the entire song. i think you both were speeing up and lsowing through the song, but i guess it's more of a jam so this is natural.

regarding the drum part at 11:40, it seemed to me (i could be wrong) that as you were keeping the steady rhythm, the drummer decided to play around and moved into a 3/4 or 6/8 pattern. this only lasted a short time...but this doesn't really matter. the point is, with a drummer that is playing all over the place, even with perfect timing, you've got also have solid timing and be able to keep your steady pattern regardless of whether the drummer hits a snare on the 1, the 2, or the &...etc.

here's a timing excercise from wooten that is great for keeping yourself straight while other band members are wailing out. set your metronome to click every quarter note. practice your jam for a few minutes and really try to "lock in". then, cut the motronome tempo in half so it's clicking every half note and play the exact same jam. now you've only got half the guidance clicks so it's a bit harder but try lock in again for several minutes. then cut it in half again so it's only clicking every quarter note. now you have very little timing guidance from the metronome. do this every day with different jams.

[Bassdirty]

Well...

I listened.(not the whole thing however..but I did FF to the part you mentioned).and MY OPINION is:
(No offense meant..)It sounds like you were playing two different songs at the same time.

From what I heard (again this is my opinion), he sounds like he "loses time", like he couldn't follow the beat.

I would advise that you just keep practicing (to a machine) and work on your own timing.That can only help you.

Now if your drummer can't keep time, well theres nothing you can do bout that.

Unless theres something going on that I just can't hear.
JMO..IMO..YMMV..and all that.
(again no offense meant)

[Fergie Fulton]

First thing timing is a responsibility of all playing.

Second thing timing is about playing together, not playing "in time"...playing together is in time, but depending on how good you all are will depend on how good you sound.

Thirdly timing issues can be influenced by outside factors not related to "counting" such as tiredness, bad technique, bad instument, stress, panic etc...

To play displaced beats, or off beats you need something to relate it to, after all if a bass player and drummer are off beat to each other then which one is off and which one is on?

Counting beats broken down to things lie 1 & E a 2 & E a 3 etc for me as i see it add to the problems some players have wilt timing, you see the probems moves to getting the timing right at the expence of the playing.

In most playing situations your count should be long and slow so an example would be

1-2-3-4-2-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-4-2-3 4 etc becoming

1-------2--------3-------4-----etc.

You count the main beat and feel what's in between.
In many situations the average player cannot count fast enough to match the music being played.

By all means work with a nome but set it so slow that you can find the main beat, not every beat, and learn to play along with it, moving in front of the beat, moving behind the beat but always knowing where it is...if not always playing it.

[christoph h.]

well, a big part is actually growing accustomed to "strange" things happening and not being surprised. then, understanding what the drummer is doing will also help you keep your place.

i think a good exercise for basic 16th displacements is using a drum-machine and programming 4 bars of normal time and one bar of displacement. then simply play along with it and keep everything nice and steady. it's probably best to use a easy and repetitive pattern at first.

with a metronome you can please the click on something different than the quarter note and try to play along with that, but use the actual pulse. For example: Play simple quarter notes but place the click on the last sixteenth note.