note groupings

[varunkapahi]

some please explain me this writing/reading music bit or direct me to an appropriate link which explains the exact rules about note groupings? sometimes i see semi or demi semi or plain quivers BEAMED together as bunch somtimes not. i dont really get
it has something to do with the down beats, or how does it work?
it also has something to do with strong and weak beats? how do note groupings indicate the pulse?

edit: yes am talking about BEAMING the notes together, there are rules regarding this which i want to find out. sorry for the confusion

[varunkapahi]

no one?

[Ed Fuqua]

Post a picture of what you're talking about; it could be triplets, it could be a tie, it could be phrasing marks. Without looking at it, i don't know what you're talking about....

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes, or re-phrase I have no idea what you are asking.

[pharmakon]

We Americans use terms like half, whole, quarter etc to describe note lengths. I think the rest of the world, like metrics, used quavers, semiquavers, etc... I'm still a bit confused.

I think what he's asking is for rules on putting eighths, sixteenths, etc together when writing. If i remember my theory days (like .. um.. 20 years ago? no.. I can't be THAT old!), it has to do with stem direction and not placement on the staff. That's about all I can say about that! But yeah, post some images of what you're talking about to help us grasp the concept!

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

i see semi or demi semi or plain quavers tied together as bunch somtimes not. i dont really get
it has something to do with the down beats, or how does it work?

It could be tied notes, where Only the first note of the group is plucked, then the note sustains across the rest of th group: two quarter notes tied together sounds the same as half note, for example
Slurs look like ties, but are composed of different pitches
tuplets can aslo look like ties, but they always have numbers under them.

EDIT: re-reading your post, you could be talking about note stems and beams

which technically do not contain any musical information. A group of 4 eighth notes is played the same with or without the beam.
They are designed to aid legibility.
They are used to group Eights and sixteenths into chunks that make them easier to follow relative to the meter.
A new beam is essentially always begun on a beat, never an off-beat.

[rosanne]

mambo4, as long as you are in the explaining mood, are there rules for when stems go up, and when they go down?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by rosanne

mambo4, as long as you are in the explaining mood, are there rules for when stems go up, and when they go down?

not exactly, although generally stems go up below the 3rd line and down from the 3rd line and above.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by mambo4

A new beam is essentially always begun on a beat, never an off-beat.

right. suppose you're in 4/4 time and you have what sounds like an eighth note followed by a quarter note followed by an eighth note (sorry, i have no idea how that translates into quavers). since the quarter note will be split between the second half of the first beat and the first half of the second beat, you will write the quarter note as two eighth notes tied together so the reader can still plainly see where the beat falls.

i used to not bother when i first started writing charts, and i used to catch hell from the musicians when i did it. so do it unless you want to catch hell.

[Andrew Jones]

Your supposed to be able to see the basic subdivision which in eighth note based stuff is usually half notes. So the Beat 3 needs to be visible.

As your subdivision becomes smaller/complex you apply the same rule.So if your with 16th subdivisions you see the quarters.



BTW this is VERY important for a reader!


Aj

[Chris K]

Hope to not offend Mambo4 getting here first... (but not soon enough to beat Jimmy to it )

Stems up: notes on or above the third line
Stems down: notes on or below the third line

- unless -

they are grouped; BEAMED is the correct term.

In a group of beamed notes, stems are up if the majority of the notes in a group are on or above the third line and vice versa.
But if beamed notes (or entire groups) are going up, my preference is to keep all stems pointing down and v.v.; if a run of notes (like a chromatic scale f.e.) takes a turn, I also change the direction of the beams.

If you write two or more voices in the same staff, the stems of the upper voice will point up and v.v.

My personal rules for beaming (difference of opinion exists)

1. Reading comfort rules
2. Groups of 4 notes max.: exception:groups with tuplets may be beamed up to 6 notes.
3. No beaming across beats; exception: four eights on two beats of a 4/4 bar (just like Andrew says)
4. No beaming for vocal music (pretty general rule)

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

right. suppose you're in 4/4 time and you have what sounds like an eighth note followed by a quarter note followed by an eighth note (sorry, i have no idea how that translates into quavers). since the quarter note will be split between the second half of the first beat and the first half of the second beat, you will write the quarter note as two eighth notes tied together so the reader can still plainly see where the beat falls.

i used to not bother when i first started writing charts, and i used to catch hell from the musicians when i did it. so do it unless you want to catch hell.

and speaking of exceptions...

there are two exceptions to this:

1. half notes that start on the beat

2. whole notes

in those cases it's perfectly acceptable to write them as is. no need to write 4 quarter notes and tie them together when you can write a whole note and it's acceptable to write a quarter note/half note/quarter note, although there are some prickly types who might disagree on that one. but i'm doing it anyway, doggone it!

[varunkapahi]

oh yes beaming is the word, thank you

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

and speaking of exceptions...

there are two exceptions to this:

1. half notes that start on the beat

2. whole notes

in those cases it's perfectly acceptable to write them as is. no need to write 4 quarter notes and tie them together when you can write a whole note

That surely looks like a chain of fools...

So, we already did stems & beams, now for ties.

Note values should be written as large as possible to improve overview, but restricted to groups of whole beats. Dotted half note could be added to what Jimmy wrote.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

and it's acceptable to write a quarter note/half note/quarter note, although there are some prickly types who might disagree on that one. but i'm doing it anyway, doggone it!

Right on, Jim. Yours it better, because the musician will immediately see he or she is dealing with syncopation, Goes for all standard syncopation patterns. Another example is eight - quarter - quarter - quarter - eight in a 4/4 bar. No ties there please.

A similar point is to avoid rests off the beat. In jazz or pop music, I prefer to not write eight - eight/rest if I could also write staccato-fourth, avoiding unnecessary offbeat rests marks. Seeing an eight/rest, the musician will instantly know that it is ON the beat and the following note is syncopated

[rosanne]

Thank you JimmyM and Chris K - very informative!