Note for Note, but I ain't grooving

donny · #1 03-20-2008, 03:34 AM

Hey guys,

Yall must have heard it once before. You see this bass player playing all the right notes, yet you along with those music conscience people in the crowd still say 'This bassist ain't grooving.'

So, my main question: If you had two bass players with the EXACT same sheet music in front of them, who both played the music NOTE FOR NOTE, adding all the articulates and stated time values, and used the SAME BASS can your really say ... One grooves better than the other? Please explain.

Somehow or another, I need more convincing. Yes yes, I heard Victor Wooten say it during his camps: 'Emphasize grooving over notes'. Yes yes, I heard BassPlayer magazine write thousands of articles on grooving. Yes yes, you're probably sitting right there saying, don't this guy know about groove. Heck, just think of the most extreme example. Have me playing 'Run for Cover' and I AIN'T gonna sound like Marcus Miller.

Is he really grooving better than me?* Or is it really because I'm not as technically skillful as he is. You see, I believe this 'innate groove inside us' as we all sought all to find is really reduced down to the technique.

Let's get down to specifics: I can't groove because I can't double thumb like him. I can't groove because I ain't playing triplets right. I can't groove because I ain't adding that dom 7th. I can't groove because I playing a quaver and not a semi-quaver. I certainly do think if I get all those correct, I will surely groove better purely due to the improvement of my technique.

So as I search for that elusive meaning of groove and the blurry ways of acquiring it, I'll just work on my technique and when someone tells me, 'Hey, I love your groove'. I'll quickly reply, 'Oh, cause I work heck of lot on my technique.

*I'll quickly point out than Marcus Miller is may favourite bass player and after all being said, he can groove all day long.

azzyrazzy · #2 03-20-2008, 03:41 AM

Hey. You're in the forum for bass instruments here.

mongo2 · #3 03-20-2008, 03:42 AM

Techniq

mongo2 · #4 03-20-2008, 03:43 AM

"Can't carry a groove if you ain't got no pocket."

Or so I've heard.

BillMason · #5 03-20-2008, 03:55 AM

It's all about timing - being in synch with the beat. Practice practice practice.

BassmanDk · #6 03-20-2008, 04:17 AM

The more tehcnique you have the more freely you can play your bass meaning you get more relaxed playing and that will lead to more grooving! Of cause i have heard people with poor technique groovin' as no tomorrow! It just proves you can't stop a good groove!
Technique is a good thing for learning to groove WHEN YOU ARE PRACTISING.
When you are out playing you should have practised so much you don't have to think about it.
Instead of thinking on how to play the upcoming triplets correctly, you should focus on PLAYING THE MUSIC. Listen to your drummer, your singer etc. - try to make their efforts shine more - make them sound better with your playing.That will actually make you sound better too. You have to go outside yourself and not think "how can i put in a cool little lick here" but instead feel when you can play that lick (or dont) to make the music feel better!

For instance, when you are playing 8 to the bar, try to emphasize the bassdrum pattern or just feel the drummers pattern in your own rhytm. Feel when you are playing the same and when you are not. Try to correct it if you are not. The notes you are playing when he is not playing the bassdrum - try to make them a part of the same rhytm by "feeling" the space provided by the drummer.
Believe me, There's a million ways of playing a simple "8 to the bar" even with the same note on all 8! The could all be consided "in time" or as written. Some just groove more!

The fact that you can hear when you are not grooving and when Marcus Miller is, is a good start. It shows that you are honest with your own playing and that means that you can improve. A lot of people ( myself included at some point) aren't honest with themselves and will never improve unless they "wake up"!

Hope this helps and good luck,
Now go out and play with somebody instead of sitting in front of the computer! ;-)

Double E · #7 03-20-2008, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donny

Hey guys,

So, my main question: If you had two bass players with the EXACT same sheet music in front of them, who both played the music NOTE FOR NOTE, adding all the articulates and stated time values, and used the SAME BASS can your really say ... One grooves better than the other? Please explain.

The player that grooves better will interpret the chart differently than the non-groover. It's tough to chart a groove on sheet music. It's about playing ahead or behind the beat, using passing tones, percussive technique between the notes and appropriate pauses.

It is really hard to quantify what it takes to groove...the best advice I can think of is: Keep your knees bent, breathe deep and listen!

John127 · #8 03-20-2008, 05:04 AM

Its not just the notes, it's the WAY you play them. I just saw a band where the bass player had this problem. He played all the notes (cover band) but just had no feel at all.
It's hard to put into words, but you know it when you hear it. Even my wife noticed it immediately.

manicbassman · #9 03-20-2008, 05:06 AM

sheet music only gives you the notes and what the transcriber thought the timings and articulation should be...

personally I think a groove is impossible to truly transcribe as it depends on microsecond differences in timing and volumes etc.

fullrangebass · #10 03-20-2008, 05:28 AM

Hi donny. The best groove lesson you can get is with a good grooving drummer (if he is great even better). He will open your ears in ways by far better than any bass player. You will listen to the nuances of groove if you spend couple of hours listening to him and THEN playing with him (listen, understand, play) My 0.02

doog · #11 03-20-2008, 05:34 AM

for me grooving is just going with the flow and being at the level where you dont have to think about the technical aspects...

You kinda just have to let go, ya know?

I have problems with grooving in the studio though, my sensible side wants everything to be cookie cutter technically perfect and I lose some of the groove this way...Oh well, more practice then

BassmanDk · #12 03-20-2008, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double E

the best advice I can think of is: Keep your knees bent, breathe deep and listen!

Isn't that the exact same advice they give in a Lamaze class?

cowsgomoo · #13 03-20-2008, 05:47 AM

a lot of it depends on the other people in the band... if they're not subdividing beats in pretty much the same way, it'll never 'groove'

this is why some bands can be sloppy and drift tempo, but still 'groove'... they're all feeling the beat in the same way

I do a bit of transcription, and the most ambiguous thing is always how a beat is subdivided... there are many bass parts that aren't quite straight 16ths, and aren't quite tripletized 16ths... and notating them is always an inexact science, like the guy above mentioned...

but I think that's the key: beat subdivision

and for any given tempo, a certain amount of 'swing' will sit the most comfortably... you can push it straighter or swing it more, and this will impart a different sensation to the listener... my feeling is that a 'grooving' groove usually sits very near a 'most comfortable' subdivision point

KJung · #14 03-20-2008, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donny

Hey guys,

Yall must have heard it once before. You see this bass player playing all the right notes, yet you along with those music conscience people in the crowd still say 'This bassist ain't grooving.'

So, my main question: If you had two bass players with the EXACT same sheet music in front of them, who both played the music NOTE FOR NOTE, adding all the articulates and stated time values, and used the SAME BASS can your really say ... One grooves better than the other? Please explain.

Somehow or another, I need more convincing. Yes yes, I heard Victor Wooten say it during his camps: 'Emphasize grooving over notes'. Yes yes, I heard BassPlayer magazine write thousands of articles on grooving. Yes yes, you're probably sitting right there saying, don't this guy know about groove. Heck, just think of the most extreme example. Have me playing 'Run for Cover' and I AIN'T gonna sound like Marcus Miller.

Is he really grooving better than me?* Or is it really because I'm not as technically skillful as he is. You see, I believe this 'innate groove inside us' as we all sought all to find is really reduced down to the technique.

Let's get down to specifics: I can't groove because I can't double thumb like him. I can't groove because I ain't playing triplets right. I can't groove because I ain't adding that dom 7th. I can't groove because I playing a quaver and not a semi-quaver. I certainly do think if I get all those correct, I will surely groove better purely due to the improvement of my technique.

So as I search for that elusive meaning of groove and the blurry ways of acquiring it, I'll just work on my technique and when someone tells me, 'Hey, I love your groove'. I'll quickly reply, 'Oh, cause I work heck of lot on my technique.

*I'll quickly point out than Marcus Miller is may favourite bass player and after all being said, he can groove all day long.

The clearest example of this issue to me is if you've ever suffered through one of those symphony 'Pops' concerts, with the symphony members reading, for example, swing tune charts. Talk about painful... all the notes are obviously perfect, and it SO doesn't swing.

The same thing holds for funk, R&B, whatever.

I believe it was Count Basie (I think) who said 'if you have to ask, it doesn't matter' (maybe it was Duke... can't remember). It's just a feel thing that some players seem to have and others don't, and it doesn't really seem relative to chops or skill in other areas. Hard to explain!

Ramstien · #15 03-20-2008, 06:17 AM

Groove is when notes have feelings and aren't hollow and empty.

rdmjazz · #16 03-20-2008, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

It's just a feel thing that some players seem to have and others don't, and it doesn't really seem relative to chops or skill in other areas. Hard to explain!

+1
Some are born with it, some have learned it, some will just never have it.

K2000 · #17 03-20-2008, 06:19 AM

I'm getting something else from the original post... he seems to be saying (IMO) that if you have a bigger repertoire of technical skills, it can make you seem like you groove better.

I'd say there's some substance to that idea...

KJung · #18 03-20-2008, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2000

I'm getting something else from the original post... he seems to be saying (IMO) that if you have a bigger repertoire of technical skills, it can make you seem like you groove better.

I'd say there's some substance to that idea...

+1.. I guess I'd put it slightly differently... if you have the 'groove' in you, then tightening up your chops, time and general playing skills will make it even better.

However, I have a couple of friends/peers that have mega chops, read perfectly, play cleanly, etc.... and.... it just kind of lays there unfortunately.

Some players (on any instrument) just 'feel' good and others don't.

sevenyearsdown · #19 03-20-2008, 06:27 AM

I really pick up a lot of feel from the drummer personally (as I'm sure a lot of other bassists do). If the drummer can't groove it, it's always tough for me to "find the pocket". At that point, playing note for note is all you have left.

pointbass · #20 03-20-2008, 06:35 AM

For the past two years I have worked with a drummer that is a technical machine .... perfect metronome-like time, precise and clean stick work, but ZERO groove. We just replaced him at the start of this year with a guy who is quite good but no where as technically competant, but he grooves his *ss off

I agree with Ken, there are certain players who will never have any kind of groove at all. It is possible that someone who can't groove could, one day, all of a sudden feel it and then the groove kicks in. When I was pretty young I had a horrible feel for Latin tunes and struggled regularly to try to "hear" the right groove. Somewhere in my early 20's it all of a sudden all came together, likely because I was listening to Latin bands pretty steadily and came to appreciate the complex (but essentially simple) feel of various Latin grooves ...

If you're having a hard time feeling the music, open your ears a little more and spend less time worrying out technique. Probably half of my "practice" time is spent listening without ever playing a note ....