odd time signatures

[x2x0]

i was reading an interview with Justin Chancellor, and they were discussing odd time signatures. so i was wondering, what is a good site to help get an ear for it, or a good place to start. also i was wondering what the difference was between 6/8 and 6/4. thanks for any help

[Chipsonfire]

Duchess and the Proverbial Mind Spread, Primus, Brown Album. Craziest time sig I've heard in a long time. Tool sometimes does interesting stuff with their time sigs as well.

[geoffkhan]

Originally Posted by x2x0

also i was wondering what the difference was between 6/8 and 6/4. thanks for any help

6/8 is compound duple, whereas 6/4 is simple triple meter.

[MysticMichael]

Fusion and progressive rock both tend to make extensive use of odd meter. Old school stuff, anyway...

To decode any time signature, you need to understand what the numbers mean: The first one (i.e. the "6" in 6/8 or 6/4) refers to the number of beats per measure, and the second one refers to the type of note assigned to that beat (i.e. the "8" in 6/8 referring to an eighth note, and the "4" in 6/4 referring to a quarter note).

Hope that clears it up for you...

MM

[The BurgerMeister]

Originally Posted by x2x0

i was wondering what the difference was between 6/8 and 6/4.

one uses eighth notes as the beat and the other uses quarter notes.

composers will usually (but definitely NOT always) use larger-note-value-based time signatures for slower passages.

but you could easily write music that "has a 6/8 feel" in 6/4... or 6/2... or 6/1... or 6/128..... it's a little bit of whim, and a little bit of making it easier for musicians to perform. ya gotta look out for the performers!

also: listen to some Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring is a great place to start) for some very in-depth odd-meter education. it's even better if you follow along with the score.

enjoy!

[JimmyM]

6/8 is used more often for swing, whereas 6/4 is most often used for a straight time style.

[Chipsonfire]

Originally Posted by jetpackbassist

one uses eighth notes as the beat and the other uses quarter notes.

composers will usually (but definitely NOT always) use larger-note-value-based time signatures for slower passages.

but you could easily write music that "has a 6/8 feel" in 6/4... or 6/2... or 6/1... or 6/128..... it's a little bit of whim, and a little bit of making it easier for musicians to perform. ya gotta look out for the performers!

also: listen to some Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring is a great place to start) for some very in-depth odd-meter education. it's even better if you follow along with the score.

enjoy!

+1 that is a fun one to follow. I think I still have the sheet musi for that somewhere...

[DocBop]

Everyone else has explained how to read decipher the numbers in the time signature of a song. Indian music use lots of odd meters and trying to counts numbers can get to be a tounge twister so they use sylables to make it easier. Using the sylables notice the patterns used and saying these can help become comfortable with odd meters. First column is the number of beat per measure.

Konakkol:

1 Ta
2 Ta Ki (pronounced: Tuh Kee)
3 Ta Ki Ta
4 Ta Ka Di Mi (pronounced Tuh Kah Dee Mee)
5 Ta Ki Ta Ki Ta
6 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka
7 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ki Ta
8 Ta Ki Ta Ta Ki Ta Ta Ki
9 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ki Ta Ki Ta

[musicmansf]

Most Tool song's are in triplets (listen to Danny Carey VERY closely), and it is one of the most interesting musical note's IMO. It's such a great way to link bars of music and make it very layered and a long time signature (Jambi is completly FUBAR, but extremely basic if it weren't for D Carey!).
While it doesn't sound very layered at first to say, a fingerstyle player, try playing "The Grudge" by Tool, it will baffle the hell out of you for a good month or so haha, that song is what drew me into Tool being technical instead of just extemely bad-ass! The verses in "The Patient" are also a good start to odd time sigs. Next up: The Dance of Eternity by Dream Theater...hehe...

Edit: someone mentioned Indian music being odd sigs, Danny Carey studied Indian/Far East patterns extensively, thats one of the reasons Tool can get so deep off pretty much the same notes in any of thier songs. The intro to 46&2 and the mid part of Rosetta are great examples of Indian beats in Tool. The Grudge is actually written in an Arabian beat formula which is where that song picks up its uniquness in rock

[NKUSigEp]

Originally Posted by x2x0

i was reading an interview with Justin Chancellor, and they were discussing odd time signatures. so i was wondering, what is a good site to help get an ear for it, or a good place to start. also i was wondering what the difference was between 6/8 and 6/4. thanks for any help

http://www.meshuggah.net/

[TeeMartin]

Originally Posted by NKUSigEp

http://www.meshuggah.net/

QFT

[NKUSigEp]

Originally Posted by TeeMartin

QFT

?????

Quick F-ing Thinking?
Quit F-ing Typing?
Quiet Falling Toenails?

I give up.

EDIT: Or is that an expression of an electronics forumla?

Charge (Q) x Frequency (F) x Period (T)? And if that's the case... F = 1/T so therefore (Q)(T)(1/T) = Qx1 = Q.

Oh man I need a break from homework!

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by NKUSigEp

?????

Quick F-ing Thinking?
Quit F-ing Typing?
Quiet Falling Toenails?

I give up.

EDIT: Or is that an expression of an electronics forumla?

Charge (Q) x Frequency (F) x Period (T)? And if that's the case... F = 1/T so therefore (Q)(T)(1/T) = Qx1 = Q.

Oh man I need a break from homework!

I think it's "Quoted for truth" or something like that.

It's a slightly more elaborate way of saying "+1"

[tkozal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e_combinations

I actually think I got this link from here.....

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by jetpackbassist

also: listen to some Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring is a great place to start) for some very in-depth odd-meter education. it's even better if you follow along with the score.

enjoy!

+2 on that. Also check out Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring -- it switches time sigs quite a bit. Beautiful piece, though.

[NKUSigEp]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

I think it's "Quoted for truth" or something like that.

It's a slightly more elaborate way of saying "+1"

Oh LOL

It was late and my brain felt like jello.

[ThatGermanDude]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Everyone else has explained how to read decipher the numbers in the time signature of a song. Indian music use lots of odd meters and trying to counts numbers can get to be a tounge twister so they use sylables to make it easier. Using the sylables notice the patterns used and saying these can help become comfortable with odd meters. First column is the number of beat per measure.

Konakkol:

1 Ta
2 Ta Ki (pronounced: Tuh Kee)
3 Ta Ki Ta
4 Ta Ka Di Mi (pronounced Tuh Kah Dee Mee)
5 Ta Ki Ta Ki Ta
6 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka
7 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ki Ta
8 Ta Ki Ta Ta Ki Ta Ta Ki
9 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ki Ta Ki Ta

for a little more on this go to bassplayer.tv and watch Kai Eckhart

[cowsgomoo]

remember that you can boil any irregular meter down to groups of 2's, 3's & 4's... although 11/8 or 15/16 appear a bit scary on the surface, they nearly always break down to things like:

3/8 + 3/8 + 3/8 + 2/8

4/16 + 4/16 + 4/16 + 3/16


and also, remember that a time signature doesn't tell you everything about how a meter breaks down... a fraction just can't give always give you as much detail as you need

for example, 9/8 could be broken down as three equal groups of 3 eighth notes... very much like a swingy sounding 3/4... alternatively 9/8 could be a straight 4/4 bar with an extra eighth note tacked on the end... counted 2+2+2+3..

until you dig a bit deeper you just don't know for sure

6/8 is usually counted as 3/8+3/8 but I can think of a case when it might be written instead of 3/4 for clarity... e.g. in passages like those in the Rite of Spring, where you have constantly changing eighth note meters... 7/8, 5/8, 7/8, 3/8... to make it easier to follow whilst those bars are clattering by, a composer could legitimately use 4/8 & 6/8... in other words 6/8 doesn't always mean 'compound duple' but it usually does

and a good example of 6/8 not always being counted as 3/8+3/8 is 'America' from 'West Side Story'... where the famous chorus is counted 3+3 then 2+2+2

[iplaybassguitar]

Originally Posted by geoffkhan

6/8 is compound duple, whereas 6/4 is simple triple meter.

thats probably not a very helpful answer to someone who doesnt know the difference between 6/4 and 6/8...im sure anyone is more likely to know what 6/8 sounds like before they know what compound duple is.

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by iplaybassguitar

thats probably not a very helpful answer to someone who doesnt know the difference between 6/4 and 6/8...im sure anyone is more likely to know what 6/8 sounds like before they know what compound duple is.

to be fair, 'compound duple' is pretty standard musical terminology, and it's not unreasonable for someone to use those kinds of terms on this forum...though I take your point that he could have gone into more detail or explained it a bit

a quick google of the phrase throws up some useful info... i.e. the wikipedia entry is good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_meter_(music)

if the OP got his head round the stuff in the above link I reckon it'd be helpful