Odd/uncommon time signatures?

jamisonsalamand · #1 10-03-2010, 10:09 AM

I've become more interested in odd and uncommon time signatures recently, such as 9/8, 5/4, 5/8, 7/8, etc. I don't really know how to get skilled at working with them however, and was wondering what advice people had for practicing and getting better at them.

Also, is there a metronome program which can be set to any certain time signature, tempo, and time signature changes? For example, I'm looking for a program that could play through a few bars of 4/4 and then switch it to 7/8 for a few bars and have any number of time changes like this, as well as a change in tempo with or without a time signature change.

**Mark Wilson** · #2 10-03-2010, 10:28 AM

You could program a click track in Sibelius or Finale and play along with that.

As far as getting better with them, subdivide it. Instead of 5, count 1-2-3, 1-2. Or in 9, count 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3.

That's how I do it anyway.

kesslari · #3 10-03-2010, 10:35 AM

I wrote something about this a while back. Let me know if it's helpful.

http://www.doumbek.com/music/polyrhythms.html

mambo4 · #4 10-03-2010, 12:38 PM

generally breaking them down into groups of 2,3, and 4 is how its done. Depending on the song, different groupings will make more sense - for example 5/4 can be 1-2,1-2-3 OR 1-2-3,1-2 depending on what feels better.

IMHO, The real challenge with odd time is making a song that actually flows naturally in that meter. To my ear, lots of odd time stuff tends to be unnatural, arbitrary riffs that don't really serve any melody or fluid phrasing. Don't do it just to do it, do it because it's right for the music.

J-B'ass · #5 10-04-2010, 03:18 AM

Dividing the notes into groups of 3's and 2's as people have said is useful. Then you should try to think of these groups as phrases that you can hum, rather than trying to count numbers in your head.
Humming a phrase that lasts a bar is easier than trying to count each 8th note as it goes past, which is pretty much guaranteed failure.

Bassist59 · #6 10-05-2010, 09:57 PM

http://www.monotunesmusic.com/Books.html

I'm sure you're way ahead of me but I intend to get into Dino Minoxolos's book one day that deals with that very subject....

A quote from "Odd Meter Basics"; "Basic odd meter foundations are covered in this excellent new book by former BIT instructor Dino Monoxelos...."

(No, I am not Dino. He did appear on the Mel Bay Bass DVD and that's how I'm familiar with him) At the stage I'm at right now, it looks like it'd give me a severe headache! One day, maybe I can handle it. Good luck.

StonewallValent · #7 10-06-2010, 03:26 AM

Everyone is right on with the idea of splitting it up into smaller sections of two or three. I'd also recommend learning a few progressive rock songs, many of them are in odd signatures. It won't necessarily give you a deeper understanding of how it works, but it will help you get more comfortable playing in odd signatures.

pygmygrizzly · #8 10-06-2010, 03:38 AM

My band used to have a song that had a bar of 5 in it, so when I played to a metronome it would bling on the 1 the first time around, then on the 2, 3, 4 ect, as that extra beat would throw the click off by one. learn the melody to Take 5, and some rush tunes, listen to that song "Freewill" by rush, and count it. hear how it flows and doesn't sound odd. its only odd if you don't feel it.

pygmygrizzly · #9 10-06-2010, 03:40 AM

ohh yeah, I went to BIT at MI, and splitting the bar up helps, but really feeling it is the only real way to get it. says Alexis.

**bassybill** · #10 10-06-2010, 12:57 PM

Listen to some Mahavishnu Orchestra stuff, like "Inner Mounting Flame" or "Birds of Fire". Count and jam/tap along with the tracks, making sure you can always find the 1. Those guys knew how to play wacky times and keep the groove.

19/8 anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K13dQsbA5CI

NielsBass · #11 10-06-2010, 01:03 PM

Dillinger escape plan?

codeinedreams · #12 10-06-2010, 02:11 PM

honestly, the way I've navigated through complicated math rock passages is to not count at all. I just listen for the predominant rhythms, feel it, write parts that fit, and practice it part by part over and over until I either know when the changes or breaks are coming without counting, or I can use some other visual or auditory cues to signal certain changes or inconsistencies. the more I over-analyze it, the deeper I get into confusion and tedium and miss the overall effect I'm aiming for in playing music such as this. but that's just me. being able to break it down and identify different time signatures is a good exercise and important for understanding what is going on and for writing music, but when actually playing this stuff, I throw all that out the window.

okcrum · #13 10-06-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassybill

Listen to some Mahavishnu Orchestra stuff, like "Inner Mounting Flame" or "Birds of Fire". Count and jam/tap along with the tracks, making sure you can always find the 1. Those guys knew how to play wacky times and keep the groove.

19/8 anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K13dQsbA5CI

Yeah, man. And some Follow Your Heart 11/8. Joe Farrell's version with JM, Jack DeJohnette, and Dave Holland kicks.

For big band, check out some Don Ellis.

EDIT: IMO you really have to learn to hear the groove or swing in the odd time signature. I learned this the hard way in a college jazz group that played a lot of non-4 stuff. I sounded like poodoo to myself, stiff and artificial, when I was reading and counting, but I sounded much better once I got free of that and just played.

fretlessguy · #14 10-07-2010, 02:06 AM

Just about anything from Spock's Beard has odd time signatures. Lots of it on "The Kindness Of strangers". Other than that, I'd go with breaking it down in groups of 2 and three like has been suggested. I can say once you get used to it, it becomes 2nd nature.

deaf pea · #15 10-07-2010, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okcrum

...For big band, check out some Don Ellis...

thanks for the mention . . .

. . .

fractiouslowend · #16 10-07-2010, 03:30 AM

everything is just straight (1-2) emphasis on 1 or 2, or a waltz (1-2-3) emphasis on 1, 2 or 3.

every riff is just some combination of these

BassChuck · #17 10-07-2010, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

thanks for the mention . . .

. . .

Dude..... I can't begin to tell you what those recordings meant to me growning up. I got to sit down and talk with Don for about an hour once, a great afternoon.

and thank you.

David1234 · #18 10-07-2010, 04:58 AM

For a different vibe altogether, have many long listens to Sting's album "Ten Summoner's Tales" which uses a fair bit of 5/4 and 7/4 time without seeming stilted at all. These are grooves that are easy to accept, which gave me a chance to find the signatures more natural.

sonic assassin · #19 10-07-2010, 05:00 AM

you're welcome.

Sketchy · #20 10-07-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassybill

Listen to some Mahavishnu Orchestra stuff, like "Inner Mounting Flame" or "Birds of Fire". Count and jam/tap along with the tracks, making sure you can always find the 1. Those guys knew how to play wacky times and keep the groove.

19/8 anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K13dQsbA5CI

That one is epic. I adore the Birds Of Fire album.