Ok, I'm having a bit of a problem with direction, so to speak...

[RandomEvent]

After 2 months lessons with my instructor, I feel that the only thing I have grasped fully is music reading. I can pretty much read sheet music on the fly now, and I'm always told that I'm doing really well on that front. Reading music notation on the fly is pretty much the only thing I'm very confident about in bass playing. I know the notes very well within the first 5 frets, and I've gotten all the way through the first book and halfway into the second book of Ed Friedland's Bass Method.

The problem I'm having is, while I practice, I do my warm up exercises my teacher gave me, and I also do a weekly bassline I am given. Then I use the Bass Method book. But I feel like I'm learning nothing but these songs. I know in my mind that I'm getting better, I can see that, but my feelings are that it's kind of an "aimless" better. I'm gaining the skills, but not being able to apply them other than what I'm assigned is basically what I'm getting at.

I also have a problem knowing when to start, and when to move on. Things like, "make sure you can play this song at any tempo" is really frustrating for me to hear. In fact, most bass advice for beginners is in this vein, and I just can't seem to make my brain grasp that fact! Has this happened to anyone else? I know I'm learning, but I just feel like I'd like instructions that were a bit more clearer, for lack of a better way to describe my feelings.

For example, I was given 2 scales from my teacher so far, but honestly I don't know the best way to benefit from practicing them. "Playing them up and down the neck," like everyone else says is WAY too vague for me, and it doesn't help me at all. It just tells me to play the same scale up and down the neck, and I don't feel or see any benefits besides my hands getting a bit better about stretching across frets. The bottom line I guess is that I am very willing to do the work (I generally practice at least 1 hour a day, more if my schedule allows), but I guess my brain needs some tangible results that I'll be able to use later. Or my brain needs motivation and to understand exactly how doing these things can benefit me.

So, I'm hoping someone here can give me advice as to how I should proceed? I've been debating learning albums of some of my favorite bands, but that also seems like just more "aimless" learning because I can't apply it to anything. I've also thought about learning from a book about jazz bass, because I like jazz and it seems like a lot of technique and style in jazz would help me immensely. But I am a bit intimidated. If anyone could recommend me some practice drills, areas of focus, or other books in general that might give me more direction, I'd appreciate it very much. I am planning to discuss this with my teacher Saturday, and would have earlier, but this is honestly a feeling I just got about 2 hours ago while I was playing. And now I'm going to go back to playing.

[meev992]

Bass is an instrument meant to be played in a group. In all honesty, when I'm alone, i play my guitar. But with others, i play bass. Find some people to jam with, even if it's just one person.

[lonestarwings]

I'm sort of at the same level that you are. Scales, theory, and music reading are great but you have to enjoy things in my opinion, otherwise you won't stay with the instrument.

My main suggestion is to find some simple songs that you enjoy listening to and learn to play their bass lines if you haven't already. I spend probably 75% of my practice time dabbling through songs that I like, the other 25% going over the scales and exercises my instructor gives me every week. Tonight I listened to a song and learned the bass line by ear w/o tab (first time I've done that, woohoo, although I'm sure it's only partially correct) and I found it pretty rewarding.

I totally feel your pain with the bass method songs. While it's a great book and the songs are pretty cool to play with the CD, there isn't a ton of musical satisfaction in learning a song that no one outside of you, ed friedland, and the others who use that book have ever heard of.

Maybe you could buy the easy pop bass lines book by hal leonard? It has some cool songs that I've enjoyed playing through, plus it will reinforce your reading skill since it's in standard notation.

Anyway, good luck and keep at it

[santucci218]

Seems like you have a ton of questions there man.

Lets start with the scales question. He probably assigned Major and Minor scales for you to play up and down the neck. reason being is so you know where they are at. If your playing in the key of C than you will have other places to play instead of at the third fret C. Gives you freedom to move around a little! Scales are a get way to pratice learning the fretboard, so start memorizing.

As for learning albums of your favorite artists, make sure you learn the important stuff first.

Just as an example, I learned to play some victor wooten songs before i learned how to read music. so for me to go back and have to play 12 bar blues sheet music was a horrible experience cause i could already slave away with 32 note solos and thought it was useless to learn. It was a big distraction.

Just keep taking lessons man. If your teacher is good than he will lead you on the right path im sure..



Its 4:40 AM here by the way. I have 4 hours on meev.

[RandomEvent]

Ok, I get it now. When people just say, play up and down the neck, my dumbass assumed that I should just play the shape up and down the neck, which is what I've been doing...

If I think of it in the context you've said, playing it in different keys, now I feel better about it.

Also, I do find bass amazingly fun to play, but sometimes I just feel like, "where in the blue hell am I going with this?" I'll check out that Hal Leonard book. Thanks for the quick replies!

[otis_thick]

Originally Posted by RandomEvent

After 2 months lessons with my instructor, I feel that the only thing I have grasped fully is music reading.

I've been debating learning albums of some of my favorite bands, but that also seems like just more "aimless" learning because I can't apply it to anything. .

The last part is where you are mistaken

Playing with others is good but if you are new to playing in a group situation...You need learn to listen and playing along with albums helps to get an understanding of FEEL of why players do what they do. There is no notation that I know of for "grunt" or "boom-a-la-roll" " UMMM Ping!" or "dig in here" Now that you can speak and read the mathmatical language of music, now you need to learn the "slang" of playing! Take a recording and play with it then try to notate what the player does with the notes. Listen to when the player is NOT playing!

When playing in a group, its a conversation! You listen B4 you add your 2 cents!

[RandomEvent]

Originally Posted by otis_thick

The last part is where you are mistaken

Playing with others is good but if you are new to playing in a group situation...You need learn to listen and playing along with albums helps to get an understanding of FEEL of why players do what they do. There is no notation that I know of for "grunt" or "boom-a-la-roll" " UMMM Ping!" or "dig in here" Now that you can speak and read the mathmatical language of music, now you need to learn the "slang" of playing! Take a recording and play with it then try to notate what the player does with the notes. Listen to when the player is NOT playing!

When playing in a group, its a conversation! You listen B4 you add your 2 cents!

Smart post, seriously. I really didn't think of it in those terms, but now I'm going to dedicate time to learning some albums. I'd rather go album by album basis. It sounds like fun already. Thanks for the advice.

[Zacc'sElectric4]

well, when your told to play a Scale up the neck, they mean, play the scale in the same key going up the octaves

and with all the modes

and if you like jazz, thats really important

say your doing a nice little walk, and you feel there needs ot be a little run from A to C

depends on what time/feel/Major/Minor/Augmented so on and so on, you can feel where to put your left hand, no matter where you are, a Muscle Memory sort of

i would one say like to be able to hear a chord, then have my hand play the scale that goes with it... without too much thinking

so i can still look like i'm having fun

:P

[RandomEvent]

I'm going to apply this stuff after work if I'm not tired. Thanks again.

[ryco]

Take meev's advice. Go out and play with others.

If your playing exercises and scales you're not really going to understand why you're learning them if you don't have a chance to try them in a musical situation.
Jamming is getting the chance to experiment with the stuff you are learning and putting it into a "real world" application.

I think you're right on about discussing your concerns with your teacher!

Good luck!

[jazzbo]

Originally Posted by RandomEvent

After 2 months lessons with my instructor, I feel that the only thing I have grasped fully is music reading. I can pretty much read sheet music on the fly now, and I'm always told that I'm doing really well on that front. Reading music notation on the fly is pretty much the only thing I'm very confident about in bass playing. I know the notes very well within the first 5 frets, and I've gotten all the way through the first book and halfway into the second book of Ed Friedland's Bass Method.

I would first say, let's slow down here and point out something that seems to be missed about this. This, my friend, is a wonderful accomplishment. Do not diminish it. Sight reading is a wonderful skill that will serve you well in the future. How you ask?

• Playing professionally in the future - There are certain gigs, (many church gigs for example), that only want somebody that can sight read.
• Learning melodies - As a jazz player, its important that I don't just read the chords on the chord chart, but that I learn melody too. Melody informs harmony, which informs rhythm, which informs ... Everything is music. It all informs each other. By learning the melodies of songs, you expand your ear, you learn new licks to cop and ain't nothin' wrong with that, and you learn new rhythms or rhythmic expressions.
• Learning parts for different instruments - You play bass, so why should you read a trumpet part, right? Well, as I said before, it all informs each other. Jaco loved learning horn melodies, and he translated that to his playing.
• Being musically literate - It's nice to have a skill that musicians have.
• Learn from other genres - Bach's cello suites, available to you in written form, are a wonderful thing to practice and play, not just because it helps understand scales and feel and things like that, but because they're beautiful. And there's nothing wrong with playing beautiful music, right?

The problem I'm having is, while I practice, I do my warm up exercises my teacher gave me, and I also do a weekly bassline I am given. Then I use the Bass Method book. But I feel like I'm learning nothing but these songs.

Well, on one hand its good that you recognize when you want more, but, just be careful to also appreciate what you got. You're learning, and while you may not see the direct application of all the material just yet, how does it feel? Do you feel like you're learning? If you do, you probably are.

I know in my mind that I'm getting better, I can see that, but my feelings are that it's kind of an "aimless" better. I'm gaining the skills, but not being able to apply them other than what I'm assigned is basically what I'm getting at.

Look, I foreshadowed my previous comment! Cool!

Okay, that's legit man. You feel like you're learning, but you don't know why that is just yet. First, trust that feeling. That's instinct. You think you're getting better. You probably are. How do you apply that? Yeah, good question.

These drills are going to do several things that are important. First, they're increasing your ear. The more you're exposed to musical sounds, the more you'll understand them. Your brain is creating new neural pathways that identify musical pitches and intervals that it didn't have before. Translated, you're ear training. Everything you play is fodder for the ear man. You're playing etudes and you're hearing something musical. As you do this, you begin to understand what a fifth sounds like, what a minor third sounds like. Why is that important? You can't ask me why hearing is important in music! It couldn't be more important! When you're playing with others, or when you're playing with yourself , you need to hear what you're playing and what others are playing to be able to communicate musically. Second, it's increasing your technique. Playing bass is physically demanding, and part of the process, as arduous as it sometimes is, is teaching your body how to play the instrument. This will increase speed and dexterity which will in turn improve tone, and allow you a greater flexibility in the types of rhythms and melodies that you can play.

I also have a problem knowing when to start, and when to move on.

You move on when you feel you need to move on. Is this too easy? Am I challenging myself. Look man, I can play "Ain't Too Proud To Beg." Ain't no thing. And when I do, I get stuff from it by hearing things, maintaining the physical ability to play, etc. But man, it ain't challenging. I can do it and have a conversation about eggs and toast. So I'm not going to make that the crux of my practice routine. You have to challenge yourself. If you can play something like breathing, push forward.

Things like, "make sure you can play this song at any tempo" is really frustrating for me to hear. In fact, most bass advice for beginners is in this vein, and I just can't seem to make my brain grasp that fact! Has this happened to anyone else? I know I'm learning, but I just feel like I'd like instructions that were a bit more clearer, for lack of a better way to describe my feelings.

Well, that makes sense. Playing songs or etudes at different tempos will challenge dexterity and speed in playing. Those are good things I guess. I'm more interested in playing things in every key. Why? Well, first, you never know when you're going to be playing with a singer or horn player that needs the song in a different key. You know the lick down cold in C, then you find that to play it in A, you have to use open strings, and man oh man you can't get the groove the way you used to have it. And second, you're training your ear to hear intervals better, (because now the key is no longer constant, only the interval, and ear training is ALWAYS a good thing), and you're training your ear to distinguish different keys. So that when that new Kelly Clarkson tune comes on the radio, you can hear what key it's in, and what chord it switches to in the chorus, that much easier.

For example, I was given 2 scales from my teacher so far, but honestly I don't know the best way to benefit from practicing them. "Playing them up and down the neck," like everyone else says is WAY too vague for me, and it doesn't help me at all. It just tells me to play the same scale up and down the neck, and I don't feel or see any benefits besides my hands getting a bit better about stretching across frets.

Once again, do not discount the benefit of stretching the fingers. But that's not what you're concerned about, and that's okay. First, if you're playing the C major scale, can you play it in two octaves, at any place on the neck. This helps your tone in playing at different parts of the neck, (frets get smaller the higher you go, right?). This helps your ear distinguish the pitches at different timbres. But also, this increases your tool bag. You can hear more and play more now. Most people when they begin, just don't understand why you're playing scales. First thing you do, right now, quit reading this and find Pacman's Sure Fire Scale Practice method. That'll change your world. Scales need to be understood backwards and forewards, but not as exercises, but as things that are musical. They have real musical value. That's why you're doing this. Playing different intervals, at different places on the neck, in several octaves, in different ways does increase physical prowess, but it expands the ear and gives you ways of playing with people. So, you're jamming along to a tune you ain't never heard before, and the chords take you somewhere you ain't never been before, and you're climbing the neck, and you're hearing a chromatic walkdown to the fifth, but OH MY GOD I'M STRANDED UP HIGH AND I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO GO BUT oh ... nah man, I've been here before and I know where my 6th is, and my minor 3rd cause this ain't nothing new.

So, I'm hoping someone here can give me advice as to how I should proceed? I've been debating learning albums of some of my favorite bands, but that also seems like just more "aimless" learning because I can't apply it to anything. I've also thought about learning from a book about jazz bass, because I like jazz and it seems like a lot of technique and style in jazz would help me immensely. But I am a bit intimidated. If anyone could recommend me some practice drills, areas of focus, or other books in general that might give me more direction, I'd appreciate it very much. I am planning to discuss this with my teacher Saturday, and would have earlier, but this is honestly a feeling I just got about 2 hours ago while I was playing. And now I'm going to go back to playing.

Okay, cool, you're willing to do the work. It sounds like you're extremely excited and motivated about playing. That has served you well so far and will continue to serve you well.

So, here's my advice of what to do next, knowing that I'm inferring your experience and level of playing, but I don't truly know:

• Yeah, learn albums - It might seem like you aren't getting anything from it, but like I've said before, you are. Copping licks is quite alright, everybody does it. Besides developing your ear and technical abilities, here's what else you'll learn: You'll hear other instruments and how they interact sonically with the bass. You'll hear what inspired other bass players, tricks of the trade and such. You'll have fun, which is HUGE!
• Standing in the Shadows of Motown - Get that book. That'll keep you busy. Remember, you're having fun and learning techniques and rhythms you weren't exposed to previously.
• Transcribe - hone your writing and ear skills all at once. You're learning theory as you do it, and learning from the masters.
• Check out my PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE thread here in General Instruction
• Check out Pacman's Sure-fire scale thread here in General Instruction.
• Check out the DB side of the board, and see what those cats do.
• Try some classical, like the Bach Cello Suites for variety.
• Check out Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. If you can play jazz and classical, you can play anything.
• Find a Blues Open Mic to sit in on. Time to get your cojones in check and play in front of people, with others. You might feel you're not ready, I don't know, and maybe you truly aren't, (but I don't think that's true). Check out previous blues threads here to learn some standard tunes. Practice those, and get a feel for how blues works, then find an open mic. Go and sit in on two tunes if you're really nervous. Two because if you just do one you might still have jitters. By the second tune, you should be more comfortable. Why Blues? Because it's kinda formulaic, and that allows you to not have to think too much. Just feel and groove. You'll get so much from it. You'll also network. Maybe you'll find some others to play with on a semi-regular basis.
• Have fun - Just keep doing what you're doing, and you'll be good.
• Communicate with your teacher. Perhaps its time to step it up a notch. He can give you complex rhythms, like some latin rhytms. He could read charts with you and have you walk lines. He could have you strictly improvise. He could have you do some ear training for awhile.

Good luck buddy.

[RandomEvent]

Jazzbo, I just wanted to send you a PM (but your inbox is full, haha) to thank you for all of your excellent advice. I just got off work, and coming home to this huge post of helpful tips has really made my day. I've actually printed out 2 copies of it, one to hang up in my music area and I put the other in my gigbag so I have it on the go. I'm very thankful to TalkBass and users like you who are willing to help a newbie out. I am definitely going to keep working hard apply everything you've told me! In steps though, because I'm really bad at getting overwhelmed so easily, haha!

Once again, thank you very much for taking time out of your day to give me some of the most honest and excellent advice I've recieved since I've started playing last year. Now I'm going back to read it again and take in the information even more...

[RandomEvent]

Guys, I'm considering picking up a Tascam Bass Trainer on my day off this Wednesday so that I can use it along with my own CD's to learn album basslines. Are these trainers really worth it? I know I should be learning by ear, and I do make time for that everyday, but sometimes when I listen to really fast lines, it gets hard for my ears to distinguish one note from another. All I hear is "cool..." So I'm hoping the Tascam is a useful tool, but I don't want to shell out 150 bucks for a dud.

[meev992]

I was about to drop the money for a Tascam, but thought that I would just bite the bullet and save my 150 and try to learn fast lines. It's because I'm cheap like that

[ThunderLizard]

Random-
Didn't read all the posts, but you really need to incorporate some 'live band' playing into your rehearsal time. Try to scout out some people at your level, or just play along with a guitar or keyboard buddy. In the right situation, this can add some fun to your practice routine.
The bass really comes alive in a band setting.

[jazzbo]

Originally Posted by RandomEvent

Jazzbo, I just wanted to send you a PM (but your inbox is full, haha) to thank you for all of your excellent advice. I just got off work, and coming home to this huge post of helpful tips has really made my day. I've actually printed out 2 copies of it, one to hang up in my music area and I put the other in my gigbag so I have it on the go. I'm very thankful to TalkBass and users like you who are willing to help a newbie out. I am definitely going to keep working hard apply everything you've told me! In steps though, because I'm really bad at getting overwhelmed so easily, haha!

Once again, thank you very much for taking time out of your day to give me some of the most honest and excellent advice I've recieved since I've started playing last year. Now I'm going back to read it again and take in the information even more...

Yeah, I gotta fix that PM thing. I don't know what's going on there.

I'm glad that some of that was helpful. I often wonder if I'm blabbering with any clue what I'm talking about or not.

[RandomEvent]

No, you and everyone else have been very helpful to me so far. I read your practice thread, for example, and I tried to make everything as musical as possible last night for practice. I looped drums on my PC instead of using a metronome, and I played standing rather than sitting. It was a lot of fun! Everything all of you have told me is very useful so far! And I've still got a ton more to apply! Thanks again for all of the help.

[BillyRay]

I'd wager that a good % of people who are buying thousands upon thousands of $ of rig, basses, strings, etc. don't know how to sight read. They might fake it (badly) with a lead sheet, but they can't sight-read to save their lives. You are able to do this. After 2 months. You're not a slave to tabs anymore and know how many flats there are in a the key of Eflat just by looking at the sheet. You'll be able to know key changes when they happen, since they'll, you guessed it, be written on the sheet. Soloing will be way easier. You'll know the melody, etc.

This is not a small accomplishment. Be proud of it. Now use the scales as a tool to learn your way all over the fretboard. Ultimately, you should know that the 7 fret on the G-string is a D without havign to think about it.

Another thing I recommend is to start to learn how the different chord qualities (dim, 7, maj, min, sus4, sus2, add9, etc.) sound like and their composition. For example, you'll know what scale(s) to play over an Amin: (Amin for sure, but also all the C major modes, for example). also learn how chord progressiosn sound. This is very easily done by learning basslines or writing basslines for tunes that you want to learn.

Let's say you like Bravado from Rush a whole lot. You find it sounds nice. Well, just figure out the chords and key (with your knowledge of shett music, it'll be easy) and write out the progression. Check out if it's modal (if it goes from Gmaj to D7, for example). Then, fool around with the scales you have learned on it. Write a walking bassline for it. A bossa nova, funk, rock groove. The possibilities are endless.

I'd say that 100% of my practice time nowdays is about expanding my musical capabilities. I used to spend a lot of times learning songs note by note like you are doing, but you eventually come to a point where it doesn't lead you anywhere anymore (you have the necessary dexterity/fluidity for what you want to play): then the fun starts. You study how certain writers approach music, what chord progression/qualities do they use. Do they modulate the meldoy, or is the chord structure an anchor to it's development, etc.

Keep up the good work and use the songs/scales you now know as soon as possible to write/compose simple grooves for yourself. You should be like a sponge, absorbing everything (from guitarists, drummers, sax, singers, etc.). In fact, learn to sing while you play your scales.

[nortonrider]

I really like my tascam, I use it all the time.
It has a looping feature which lets me keep playing the part of the song I'm learning over and over, that's what I like the best about it.

[tZer]

I've been debating learning albums of some of my favorite bands, but that also seems like just more "aimless" learning because I can't apply it to anything.

What your teacher is teaching you is what you use to learn those albums - what you hear on those albums is a direct result of what your teacher is teaching you.

Learning those albums directly applies to your personal growth and ability as a musician. It makes your ears sharper (insert Mr. Spock joke here) - it helps you get a variety of stylistic approaches under your fingers - it acquaints you with the many different ways bass factors into the overall song, and so on.

The more albums you learn, the more your experience with bass lines expands. The more your experience with bass lines expand, the more you'll want to learn. At least, that's the idea.

So my advice it to definitely, without hesitation, learn those albums! Learn anything that peaks your bass playing interest. Then use what you are learning and to help your teacher help you. Ask your teacher questions specific to the song you are currently trying to figure out. Your teacher should not only be able to answer your question, but should also be able to relate it to the exercises you are working on.

The worst thing that could come of that is you end up knowing a ton of bass lines. There is nothing wrong with that!

But you describe a very real problem with the teacher/student relationship. It's the teacher's responsibility to teach the basics. The basics are rather uninteresting to new students. The biggest enemy of learning is boredom and if the student feels the basics are boring, the challenge to overcome the inertia created by boredom becomes greater.

My solution: With my student, every fourth lesson we "put away the book" and put on some of his favorite music. We figure out what the bass player is doing and I show him how the part breaks down to the very same scales, finger techniques, string-crossing and counting exercises that he's been practicing. We do this for the entire hour. We may not even get passed the first verse and chorus, but we spend the whole time doing nothing but "figuring out the song". At points along the way I show him how the part he is listening to is a direct relative to an exercise he has been working on.

Being able to say, "Hear that quick part? THAT is why you work on alternating your fingers."
or
"Hear how the bass line walks up from the G to the C? Doesn't that remind you of something you've been practicing? You know, that boring old major scale?"
or
"Notice how all the notes in this part of the song are also in the G major scale? See how knowing how to play a major scale anywhere on the neck pays off?"

Then I am able to tell him to work on his scales, alternating fingers, counting and have that mean something to him. I am also able to tell him that when he needs a break from the tedium, he can always put on one of his favorite songs and try to figure out what is going on...