One Pattern Fits All?

[Neb Maro]

To start off with, I'm going to be using the C scale as a reference since it is the first scale I learned on my bass. Now, I use the 2(C)-4(D)-1(E)-2(F)-4(G)-1(A)-3(B)-4(C) pattern. First finger covering the first two frets, second finger starting on third fret of A string when doing C scale. I also learned that the 24124134 pattern works for every major scale. Now, can variations of the 24124134 be universally used for the modes? Here is the example for the variations of the pattern is it concerns C.

Note- +1 means move one fret up neck toward nut
Using C as reference again (Third fret, A string):
Ionian(Major):2 4 1 2 4 1 3 4
Dorian(2 flats): 2 4 +1 2 4 1 2 4
Phyrgian(4 flats): 2 3 +1 2 4 +1 2 4
Lydian( 1 sharp): 2 4 1 3 4 1 3 4
Mixolydian(1 flat): 2 4 1 2 4 1 2 4
Natural Minor-Aeolian(3 flats): 2 4 +1 2 4 +1 2 4
Locrian Mode(5 flats): 2 3 +1 2 3 +1 2 4

Ok, with that explained concerning the variations, can they be used universally in keys?
What are other ways to easily memorize the modes and pentatonic scales. What are easy ways to memorize the fret board?

Thank's for the assistance.

[DaemonBass]

I think that reading standard notation is the best way to learn the fretboard. You don't have to be able to sight-read or anything too advanced, just download the sheet music for a simple song you know, then learn the basics of standard notation, and attempt to play it on your bass. The action of figuring out where each note is from the music to your bass will help you learn a lot.

Also, realize that there are only 8 notes plus sharps/flats and that there are no notes between B and C and also E and F.

Start on the E string learn that one day, then pick A string for the second day, but be sure to review.

Pick a random note on the fretboard with your eyes closed, test yourself by how quickly you can figure out what note that is.

[Neb Maro]

Good advice for learning the sound of the note. I am working on that. Also,I am memorizing the fretboard by memorizing the dotted frets first. So third across is GCFBflat. Fifth across ADGC. Seventh across BEAD. 9th across CsharpFsharpBE. 12th across EADG.
The pattern repeats after the twelfth fret so if I can memorize the first twelve frets, I have the ones that follow.

Learning the dotted frets makes it easier for me to learn the spaces in between. So it's a combo of being able to see the note before I play it and then to be able to hear it and know it's right without looking.

Have any comments concerning the pattern and it's variances though?

[ryco]

I think I understand what you're asking and I think I understand your finger chart.

If you have a finger pattern for a particular mode or scale, then that pattern will work for other keys if you shift the whole pattern. Just like your major scale (Ionian) pattern will work for C starting with your second finger on the third fret of the 'A' string; if you move it to the fifth fret on 'A' you can play a D major scale.
If you play Dorian pattern second finger on third fret 'A' string then you're playing C Dorian. Play that identical pattern starting on the seventh fret 'A' you will be playing E Dorian. Play your Phrygian pattern starting on the fifth fret on the 'E' string and you'll be playing A Phrygian.

If that's what you mean by using them "universally" then yes - the patterns stay consistent from fret to fret, string to string. Music is patterns. Same for scales like pentatonics, blues, etc.

There are other ways and patterns to play these scales as well. To learn the fretboard try learning three or four different fingerings to play each mode/scale. You may find some easier fingerings that don't require so much shifting or that lead into other places smoother.

Hope this answers your question

ps> I don't know if there are easy ways - just that there are ways. I hope they're easy for you! Have fun!

[Neb Maro]

Thank you Ryco.
Could you perhaps post patterns that you use?

[Jazz Ad]

This is for the key of C.


Just slide the shape up or down the board to fit the key you're in.

[Neb Maro]

Thanks. I have a similar diagram in my Bass Scale Finder Book.

My main question though concerned how universal the pattern 24124134 and it's variations concerning the different modes was. Like this for an example:
C Mixolydian has one flat, the 7th so it would be
(Starting from third fret on A) c d e f g a bflat c
2 4 1 2 4 1 2 4

So would that number pattern be usable when playing a d mixolydian scale?

[Jazz Ad]

You're complicating your task for nothing, trying to associate modes and frets.
Modes are only defined by the degree on which you start playing the scale.
You want to know degrees and where they stand in the scale (and scale shape to ease the job).
From there you can easily play any mode in any key and switch between them at will instead of getting stuck in a given mode.

[Neb Maro]

Would you please elucidate?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Just slide the shape up or down the board to fit the key you're in.

+1
The biggest benefit of playng a stringed instrument typically tuned using the same intervals (4ths on a bass) is that all the patterns are interchangable between the keys, particularly if you use a five or six-string. Other than getting comfortable playing something at any given point on the neck, it's not necessary to learn everything in all 12 keys, as when you learn how to play it in one key, you simply use the same pattern again when playing in a different key.

There's a couple ways to finger each mode, and if you can learn them all it will be beneficial, although we all end up falling back on a favorite way to play it. I, for example, usually keep everything at one finger per fret, so the way I typically play an Aeolian would be 134,134,13 rather than the extended fingering you use, although there are benefits to both. Another example is on Dorain I typically play 134, 14, shift my hand down a fret, 124. On the second string, my pinky frets a note only a whole tone away from what my index is fretting, but doing this sets up my hand to easily shift down a fret, as it puts the pinky in the position for it ahead of time.

One of the main things with learning your own fingering patterns is finding out how well certain ones allow you to transition to other ones. For example, using the 24, 124, 134 pattern for major (Ionian) scales is often the best way to play it if you are going to transition to Locrian, as your hand can stay in the same position (you typically won't often switch from Ionian to Locrian though ) But playing Ionian over five frets with the fingering being 134, 134, 23 (key of C would be playing the notes CDE, FGA, BC) allows you to easily to hammer-ons and pull-offs between the 2nd and 3rd of the scale as well as the 5th and 6th of the scale, and the sound of these hammer-ons or pull-offs is a sound that is very much a part of southern rock and some country.

A great book to check out is Mike Dimin's "The Core Method" which discusses how to use particular patterns to their fullest extent and how they allow you to . He uses five fingering patterns he calls scale forms. It's a bit too complex for me to get into here, but you can check out his site for an in-depth view of it. It's similar to what Gary Willis talks about in his Fingerboard Harmony book, but it's a lot more user-friendly and descriptive.

One last note: it's easy to get too caught up in patterns. Great melodic playing often comes from getting out of these patterns, but they are still very beneficial. I've even read people comment on how "they play music, not patterns," although this is counterproductive; you are playing patterns whether you like to think of them that way or not, so it's best to take advantage of this fact and use it to your benefit.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Wanderer81

Thanks. I have a similar diagram in my Bass Scale Finder Book.

My main question though concerned how universal the pattern 24124134 and it's variations concerning the different modes was. Like this for an example:
C Mixolydian has one flat, the 7th so it would be
(Starting from third fret on A) c d e f g a bflat c
2 4 1 2 4 1 2 4

So would that number pattern be usable when playing a d mixolydian scale?

If you moved your 1 or root note from C (3rd fret a string) to the D note (5th fret A String) and applied the fingering you describe you would be playing a D Mixolydian Scale.

[Neb Maro]

Thanks for the post. And you too Jazz Ad, I will have to re-read everything the both of you have posted so I might fully understand it. I tend to be a very methodical person, so that is why I go for learning patterns to start with. In doing so, I feel like I am building a strong foundation which will give me more comfort when I spring out into the mad world of song learning and jamming.

[Neb Maro]

Originally Posted by jimbob

If you moved your 1 or root note from C (3rd fret a string) to the D note (5th fret A String) and applied the fingering you describe you would be playing a D Mixolydian Scale.

So the same pattern I used for C mixo could be used for d mixo if I used the same root note finger and then following pattern?

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

One last note: it's easy to get too caught up in patterns. Great melodic playing often comes from getting out of these patterns, but they are still very beneficial. I've even read people comment on how "they play music, not patterns," although this is counterproductive; you are playing patterns whether you like to think of them that way or not, so it's best to take advantage of this fact and use it to your benefit.

I like that...I tell my students this...Make the scale not "sound" like a scale...use your ears to determine how Scales/Modes/Chords can work for you.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Wanderer81

So the same pattern I used for C mixo could be used for d mixo if I used the same root note finger and then following pattern?

Yes.
Your root note would be on the D...so your notes would be D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D. You will hear the same kind of "Flavor" from that scale as you move from key to key. Try it with the other scales you are learning...I also have written a book about this. PM me for details.

[Neb Maro]

Yiu said you teach Jimbob.
How beneficial is it to take a methodical approch to memorizing fret-note relations, aural distinction of notes, learning patterns?
Would it be more beneficial just to learn by ear, do trial and error and just play what you think sounds good?

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Wanderer81

Yiu said you teach Jimbob.
How beneficial is it to take a methodical approch to memorizing fret-note relations, aural distinction of notes, learning patterns?
Would it be more beneficial just to learn by ear, do trial and error and just play what you think sounds good?

I can't answer that question because I don't know your musical goals or your personality...I think you are a methodical person based on the thread so far so I will offer this....The role of the bassist is to play in the pocket period. So how do you do do that?

Play bass with other musicians as soon as and as often as you can.

As far as my lessons go...

My students have to have a basic understanding of note values before I get them playing the instrument...their first lesson involves a drumstick! Whole notes, 1/2 notes, quarter notes and 1/8th notes. Understanding and being fluent playing these basic beats on a bass will keep you in demand as a bassist. If you know that then...

Knowing where the notes are on the fretboard is vital!
Start by learning where your Whole notes are on every string of the fretboard.

Once you know where your notes are, if you can play the Major scale forwards, and backwards and know what notes you are playing when you play the major scale, you are on your way.

Everything you have mentioned in your post is important but application of what you practice is how you will get good.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by Wanderer81

Thank you Ryco.
Could you perhaps post patterns that you use?

I could post you other patterns, but you said you wanted a method to learn your fret board. I think having you find other patterns would be a great way for you to learn your fretboard. Start with your first finger on the root and build a major and a minor scale that way. Start with your pinky on the root and build across the fretboard that way.

Showing you patterns is one method of learning. But to really get to know music I would suggest you take some beginning music theory classes or get some books and get to know all the keys intimately. Using patterns is a rather robotic way of looking at music - I mean it's OK in the beginning as a way of getting scales under your fingers. But I found that the more I played the more I wanted to get away from hand shapes and, instead, into sound shapes.

But it is a great first hint in that music is just patterns. Some patterns you will hear a lot and recognize fairly quickly. Some you don't hear very often and the fun of music is seeing what makes the unfamiliar sounds or progressions work.

Good luck!

[dhadleyray]

What's this "pattern" stuff? You will regret learning bass by patterns. I'm glad you have something that works for you, but please think about notes and harmony more than patterns.

If you are thinking scales when you say that that, great.. I just worry about "bass by numbers" approaches..

[steveb98]

Patterns are only good for relaying a suggested fingering. It is very important to know the scales/modes by what intervals. IMO opinion too many learn a couple patterns for each scale/mode and are lost if the line shifts them out of that position. If you know how the scales/modes are constructed then if you shift you can easily adjust.

One of the best things to happen to me was a bass teacher a couple years ago had me work on playing scales on one string, then two, then three. Next playing all scales up and down two octaves. That mean you really have to know how those scales/patterns are constructed so you can shift to move up and down the new. Doing that really taught me to know my scales how they are constructed. After getting that under my fingers I expanded it to modes. Then practice scales/mode from the lowest note on the my bass up to the highest.