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  #1  
Old 04-30-2010, 06:41 AM
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Over The Rainbow jazz analasis

I am struggling to work out the cord centres for this tune. I have the Aebersold lead sheet and am finding it difficult to analyze the harmony. Can anyone help with scales for this tune?
  #2  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:12 AM
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Can you post the Lead Sheet and identify where you are having the trouble?
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  #3  
Old 04-30-2010, 10:04 AM
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Just post the changes you're using; posting the melody gets into copyright issues.
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  #4  
Old 04-30-2010, 10:42 AM
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Here ya go, made some annotations to a snippet of the first 8 bars to get ya started (hopefully the same changes you have in your book):



Note the V I root motion consistent throughout and in the highlighted area the cycle moving in 4ths.

-PE
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Last edited by PlanetEarth : 04-30-2010 at 10:44 AM.
  #5  
Old 04-30-2010, 01:31 PM
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Many thanks, yes they are the same changes.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:43 PM
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Just wondering...

You calling yourself a funkjunky...

What's going to happen to that beautiful song?
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I cannot hear an audible difference.
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:46 PM
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Funkjunky is a very old handle going back to my days as a saxplayer. I play my jazz very traditional. Must admit I do like a bit of slap bass but not when Im playing Jazz. The above changes arnt quite the same. Here is the A section I have been working on:scan0191.pdf
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Old 05-02-2010, 01:01 AM
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Handshake from another guy who used to play the sax and went over to bass.

You are using the same editon PE is using.

I would probably play something like the following (in notes)

Eb (G) Bb Ab | G (F) E A| Ab (Ab) A (A)| Bb (B) C (C 8vb)|
F (Ab) C Cb| Bb Ab G C| F (C) Bb (Bb 8vb)| Eb (G) F Bb|

Notes between () are not essential, just there if you want to play on all four beats.

Have fun.
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I cannot hear an audible difference.
  #9  
Old 05-02-2010, 02:13 AM
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scales are getting you into trouble. you're trying to find a scale that works with everything and you're not going to find it. use the chords, forget about scales, play chromatically, and when a chord comes up that's out of the key signature, roll with it. use chord tones at first, even just roots until you get used to it, and don't be too busy about it until you get a better idea of what to do.
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  #10  
Old 05-02-2010, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JimmyM View Post
scales are getting you into trouble. you're trying to find a scale that works with everything and you're not going to find it. use the chords, forget about scales, play chromatically, and when a chord comes up that's out of the key signature, roll with it. use chord tones at first, even just roots until you get used to it, and don't be too busy about it until you get a better idea of what to do.
Agreed - that's a Sax player mentality - looking for blanket scales - bass players have to have a different outlook...
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  #11  
Old 05-02-2010, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Funkjunky View Post
The above changes arnt quite the same. Here is the A section I have been working on...
Nicer changes in yours.... Try this one out.



** Side note, IMHO, this tune swings hard in 6/8

-PE
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Last edited by PlanetEarth : 05-02-2010 at 03:09 PM.
  #12  
Old 05-03-2010, 09:46 AM
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Thanks guys. I agree having played sax has a huge influence on my playing. The up side is I tend to look for more melodic lines and dont always try to build everything from the bottom up. Of course as Bruce sayes this can get in the way as well.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:59 AM
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In measure 2, the A7+4 is a tritone substitution for Eb7.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Funkjunky View Post
Thanks guys. I agree having played sax has a huge influence on my playing. The up side is I tend to look for more melodic lines and dont always try to build everything from the bottom up. Of course as Bruce sayes this can get in the way as well.
you can get away with that a lot easier on sax than you can on bass. it's always good to be able to do it on bass, but you'll often get a lot of funny looks if you get too harmonic and don't telegraph the root.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:15 AM
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you can get away with that a lot easier on sax than you can on bass. it's always good to be able to do it on bass, but you'll often get a lot of funny looks if you get too harmonic and don't telegraph the root.
Let them wait... till the end of the phrase
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  #16  
Old 05-03-2010, 10:37 AM
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Let them wait... till the end of the phrase
yeah, that's funny until they do the same thing with your pay
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  #17  
Old 05-03-2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanetEarth View Post
Nicer changes in yours.... Try this one out.



** Side note, IMHO, this tune swings hard in 6/8

-PE
While this analysis is pretty solid at a fundamental level, my Berklee senses tingled at a few of the ways you chose identify these chords. This is what Berklee would say is wrong with this analysis...I don't necessarily agree with how jargony and proprietary Berklee's harmonic analysis is, but it's worth knowing.

1. Measure 1, Ab7 - You said this was "subV of V7/V". First of all, that's not even what it would be (it would be Gb7, if the root of V7/V is F), second, the expected resolution of a dominant functioning chord by definition cannot be a non-diatonic chord. So it couldn't be subV of V7/V, it would have to be subV/II. As we are hearing the chord, we aren't expecting it to go to a secondary dominant, we're expecting it to go to the diatonic chord built on the expected root of the subV. When you hear Gb7 within the context of Eb major, because of the non-diatonic chord tones and the substituted dominant resolution patterns, you expect to hear F-7 afterwards, not F7.

But I digress, since this chord isn't Gb7, it's Ab7. Because of the half-step resolution to G-7, you likely thought that Ab7 is functioning as a substitute dominant. While it is a dominant chord and has a half step resolution, it is not a subsitute dominant. Half step resolution is only one half of the subV definition. The other (much-neglected) half is the fact that all subV's have non-diatonic roots. This is extremely important in how they resolve and behave within context. If you have a diatonic root, like Ab7, then it must either be a) a secondary dominant or b) a special function dominant/modal interchange chord. Berklee would define this chord as IV7, nothing more. You would, however, be expected to draw a dotted arrow between Ab7 and G-7 to indicate the half step resolution, showing a sort of "fake-me-out" subV.

2. Measure 2 A7(#11) - This chord is a definite subV for several reasons. 1) Non-diatonic root, 2) Expected resolution by half step to a diatonic chord (which is fulfilled) and 3) Lydian chord scale (the #11) implied. Let's go through those step-by-step. It cannot be a secondary dominant (you claim it's V7/vii-7(b5)) because it does not have a diatonic root (all secondary dominants have diatonic roots by definition). VII-7(b5) cannot have a secondary dominant because secondary dominants tonicize chords, and VII-7(b5) is far too weak a harmonic structure to have an associated secondary dominant that still has a hearable relationship to the original key.

The A7 is a dominant chord (preceeded by it's related II-7, E-7) that does not have a diatonic root, so it immediately implies subV resolution. The A7 indeed does resolve by a half step to the IV chord, so it can only be considered subV/IV. Calling it "#IV7" is meaningless because it's doesn't have any sort of diatonic or modal interchange function.

Finally, it uses/implies the so-called "Lydian" extensions of 9, #11, and 13, which are used/implied in melodies on virtually every substitute dominant. The only exception I can think of is the "Ellingtonian" subV/I, which allows for a #9 on the subV (the tune "I'm All Smiles").

3. Measure 3 D7 - You called it the VII7 as well as the V7/III. It can't be both - it's the V7/III. VII7 has a very specific role as a "special function dominant," which it doesn't quite fulfill here. The VII7 is a chord with an expected resolution to I - you can hear it in tunes like Whispering, Groovin' High and Meditation. It's related in history to the classical idea of the "auxilary triad" and the "auxiliary diminished" chord, as well as that lovely D7/Eb substitution that chord players like to play for the first chord of Misty.

None of that is the case here. It simply resolves to the III-7 chord.

4. Measure 4 C7 - The same thing with this one - you called it both a VI7 and a V7/II. VI7 is another special function dominant, albeit a very rare one.

5. Measure 5 Db7 - This is the opposite mistake as the last two - you labeled this bVII7 and "subV7 of V7/VI" (I'll just go ahead and assume you meant subV7/VI) In this case, the Db7 is functioning as bVII7 as a modal interchange chord as well as a special function dominant with an expected resolution to I. Analysis is all about determining how a chord sounds within the context of a key, and the sound of the bVII7 within context very clearly does not imply VI-7. If it was subV/VI, then you would be saying that this is a deceptive resolution when it returns to Eb, and I very much doubt that many people would hear that resolution as deceptive. This is why it's important to analyze with your ears and not your eyes.

The non-Berklee term, by the way, for this sort of chord progression (IV-7 to bVII7 to I) is the "backdoor II-V". I think that aptly describes what's going on.

6. Measure 7 F7 - Same deal. II7 is yet another special function dominant with a different resolution pattern than V7/V.

Now, we can argue all we want about the merits of analyzing music in this way. But if you went to Berklee, these are the points I'd take off if I was grading it.
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  #18  
Old 05-03-2010, 01:26 PM
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Now, we make can argue all we want about the merits of analyzing music in this way. But if you went to Berklee, these are the points I'd take off if I was grading it.
Nope, no argument to be had, no fish here and definitely no ego... And I most certainly don't feel the least bit embarrassed about about a few obvious mistakes on something I spent about 5 minutes doing half-baked after a long weekend packed with gigs.

But, thanks for jumping in with the thorough response and corrections so at least the OP has good/better info to work from - and for reminding me why I should only do these when I'm willing to put down the proper effort and not a half baked/half thought through reply...

Sorry for any confusion...

-PE
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Last edited by PlanetEarth : 05-03-2010 at 01:30 PM.
  #19  
Old 05-03-2010, 02:42 PM
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Oh my god! This tune was supposed to be easy clearly not the case. To say im more confused than ever would be an understatemant. Perhaps I should go back to autumn leaves!!!
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  #20  
Old 05-03-2010, 03:09 PM
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Oh my god! This tune was supposed to be easy clearly not the case. To say im more confused than ever would be an understatemant. Perhaps I should go back to autumn leaves!!!
hahaha! i always get confused by theory gone wild, too

when you get confused, just remember you go a lot farther by playing parts that sound like music rather than trying to work in your theory lessons. in the end, what counts is cohesive sounding music.
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