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  #1  
Old 08-17-2009, 02:03 PM
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Is this package worth anything?

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has anyone used this:

http://www.tanagerpress.com/Counterpoint.htm

If so - any feedback? Good/bad/indifferent?

thx
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  #2  
Old 08-17-2009, 04:05 PM
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BOH, I think I can help.

I examined this book while looking for a species counterpoint text to use at Stanford University in 1998-2000 (IIRC). I did not choose the book you are considering, but that had little to do with what the book is about. More on my choice later.

About this book: As you probably know, this is another in a long series of strict counterpoint books--like those by Cherubini, Bellermann, Schenker, Schoenberg, Jeppeson, Saltzer/Schachter, etc.--designed to update the study of Species Counterpoint. All the strict counterpoint books by the above authors (and numerous others) are based on "Gradus ad Parnassum," which is a brilliant pedagogical abstraction for learning strict counterpoint, first (largely) expounded by Johann Joseph Fux, and written originally in Latin (Vienna, 1725).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Fux

This pdf book (the "Package" you are asking about) is another Strict Counterpoint book, with some added material at the end. This book is very much like others in it's presentation of Fux's master student dialog. BTW, Strict Counterpoint and Species Counterpoint are terms for essentially the same thing.

My opinion of this package is that 95% of the book is available from your public library by checking out almost any Species Counterpoint manual. The 5% about how it applies to contemporary Rock/Jazz/Blues song writing might be interesting, but IMHO, if you listen to a lot of music, you already have internalized what is there.

As you doubtlessly know, Counterpoint is part of the general study of voice leading, and is most relevant to writing classical music, doing music analysis, and to applications where the style of music is either extremely conservative, or of an extremely "cultivated," type i.e., where we are not talking about songs with improvised bass lines and solo's, one or two primary voices, and rhythmic use of chords on guitars and keyboards without specific written out parts controlling each and every single pitch. Species Counterpoint is about writing lines that work well-together according to something like 30 rules that restrict every aspect of the lines and their interaction, rhythm, range, shape, everything. Chords are simply by-products of the proper use of consonant intervals. Root movement as a concept or expressive tool is non-existent. You start with one voice (line) and then work with two parts, three, four, etc. Dissonance and rhythm are regulated similarly with total strictness. Part of Fux's idea was to teach how to compose in the style of the late Renaissance. His method is a start toward that, but real 16th century counterpoint is much more subtle, complex, and expressive.

In addition, the style of counterpoint (Species) that Fux (and the "Package") teaches is a style that is so constrained that it is essentially useless as a compositional style, though it kind of simulates sacred polyphonic music of the 16th century, but with most of the really graceful stuff and formal/dramatic shape ironed out. It is so harmonically bland, it will shock you, but only for a short while before you stop paying attention.

Study counterpoint if you are interested in the ear training and greater musical awareness it affords. This manual is probably as good as the next. IMHO, counterpoint will not make you a better bassist or better Rock/pop/country/folk/funk/R&B songwriter, compared to simply writing music a lot, listening, recording yourself, and being deeply self-reflective.

So what book did I choose for my Stanford counterpoint students?

"A Handbook of Modal Counterpoint" by Stella Roberts and Irwin Fischer. New York, Free Press [1967].

Sadly, I believe it is out of print. Good, brief, and useable by students. It tries to connect the abstract Species with real Renaissance music to a degree. You can probably find a used copy on Ebay.
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Last edited by Jim Carr : 08-17-2009 at 07:26 PM. Reason: typo
  #3  
Old 08-17-2009, 05:22 PM
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Found one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Handbook-of-...6#ht_500wt_702
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  #4  
Old 08-17-2009, 05:43 PM
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Wow... It seems I asked the right guy!

thanks, doc!
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  #5  
Old 08-17-2009, 09:03 PM
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Woot, go Dr. Carr!

Pretty much all study of counterpoint has been influenced by Fux's Gradus Ad Parnassum, for better or for worse. The entire idea of "species" counterpoint seems to be permanently engrained within the pedagogy, which I think actually is a good thing. Reading the original is interesting, I suppose, if you already have a good grasp of counterpoint and want to see where the teaching theory came from, but it is amazingingly constrictive, and really doesn't do much to emphasize the broader and more universal concepts of counterpoint applicable to all forms of music from Renaissance to Modern to Popular (jazz, pop, etc), like control of intervallic consonance/dissonance, melodic contour, rhythm, etc. A book I like is "A Practical Approach to 18th Century Counterpoint" by Gardner Read. Its very comprehensive in stylistic practices of the time, and there are a TON of examples so it isn't simply a list of rules and exceptions - you really get into the nuance.
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  #6  
Old 08-18-2009, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaVIC5 View Post
Woot, go Dr. Carr!

Pretty much all study of counterpoint has been influenced by Fux's Gradus Ad Parnassum, for better or for worse. The entire idea of "species" counterpoint seems to be permanently engrained within the pedagogy, which I think actually is a good thing. Reading the original is interesting, I suppose, if you already have a good grasp of counterpoint and want to see where the teaching theory came from, but it is amazingingly constrictive, and really doesn't do much to emphasize the broader and more universal concepts of counterpoint applicable to all forms of music from Renaissance to Modern to Popular (jazz, pop, etc), like control of intervallic consonance/dissonance, melodic contour, rhythm, etc. A book I like is "A Practical Approach to 18th Century Counterpoint" by Gardner Read. Its very comprehensive in stylistic practices of the time, and there are a TON of examples so it isn't simply a list of rules and exceptions - you really get into the nuance.
+1

Good points, and thanks for the kind words. BTW, I'm pretty sure the book to which you are referring

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Appr.../dp/0881338532

is by Robert Gauldin, who also wrote a terrific book on 16th Century counterpoint. I have used both as texts and like them very much.


I might add for those who may be wondering, that 18th Century counterpoint is the term used to describe the polyphonic technique of music from the mid and late Baroque period, and it is drastically different from the (earlier) music of the Renaissance. Without extremely thorough training in 4-part harmony (chorale style), figured bass realization at the keyboard, and a lot of study via keyboard performance and listening, 18th Century counterpoint is pretty much actually beyond the reach of most music students--even though they do learn a lot in the process of thrashing through it. Students typically don't have the preparation needed to manage it. This failure is mostly due to a lack of really adequate keyboard skills. Keyboard skills train the ear and mind much more than those without them realize, IMHO.
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Last edited by Jim Carr : 08-18-2009 at 07:17 AM. Reason: clarity
  #7  
Old 08-18-2009, 07:24 AM
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You are probably thinking of Gardner Read's book on notation or one of his orchestration books.

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Notation...ref=pd_sim_b_1
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