Parallel and Diatonic Modes.

[Banana Bread]

I understand the idea behind diatonic modes, )if your in Cmaj. , c ionian, d dorian, e phrygian etc...). But I dont really see how that is anything of use at all because all you are doing is playing the notes of C ionian, so I dont see the purpose of the other modes.

So I asked my teacher, and he told me, "that's not the only way you can use modes, there are two ways to play them, diatonic, and parallel, he tried to teach me a little bit about the parallel form but i didnt quite grasp it. I understand what is flatted in what mode style, but I dont understand how you use that. So if I'm in Cmaj., using the parallel form what modes can I play? and why?

Thanks in advance.

[Just J]

I'm not sure, but I think by parallel he means the relative minor... maybe? That might be the wrong term, I'm not theory pro.

The relative minor of Cmaj is Amin. Playing and soloing over a specific key using one of the relatives will give the solo a different feel without sounding like a train wreck.

[jaebee]

if you are playing in the key of c then the modes would be

c ionian
d dorian
e phrygian
f lydian
g mixolydian
a aeolian
b locrian

this would be diatonic modality.

i believe what your teacher is referring to when he is talking about parallel modes is taking a mode (ie phyrgian) and applying that mode to a root note. ie parrallel mode would be going from e phrygian to d phrygian, same sound but a whole step lower. this would not be diatonic because those modes can not exist in the same key together.

i think that this also applies if for instance you had a prog. or a b c d and you would use various modes for each root depending on the sound you wanted, or perhaps the same mode.

[Banana Bread]

Originally Posted by jaebee

i believe what your teacher is referring to when he is talking about parallel modes is taking a mode (ie phyrgian) and applying that mode to a root note

That's what he meant, I know he meant something along those lines, but what I dont understnad is how would you use that type of playing and stay in a certain key?

[Andrew Jones]

Parralel modes are when you keep the same key center note but use chords derived from different modes built from that note.

C major

C aeolian

C dorian


Ect....


Example

D-7/G7/Cmaj/Bb-7Eb7/AbMaj7


II-7/v7/1maj7/II,V7 of bVI/bVImaj7



In this case we're understood untill II,V7 of bVI right?


Flat six is from parralell aeolian mode C natural minor. The II,V is simply getting us there.










Andrew

[Andrew Jones]

The previous example is actually not a good one. Why,because it sounds to much like a modulation. This is a big lesson in harmonic annalisis,these turms are just fancy names to describe what you hear.In this case it is the harmonic Rhythm (what beats the cords fall on) that made it sound like a modulation.


I will change the relationship of the beat to the cords and stay squarely in the key of C



New example



D-7G7/Cmaj7/Bb-7Eb7/Abmaj7#11



Same annalisis as previous post.


Andrew

[DocBop]

To the first part of your question use of the modes show you haven't played them enough to hear what they sound like. Each mode is also associated with the harmonized major scale so they have chords associated with them. There are major, minor, and dominant sounding modes. I hear you but the notes are all the same. Well you play a song in key of C major and the chords are C, F, and G. As those chords change don't you emphasize different notes of C major scale? Mode are another way of doing that, the chord changes and you switch modes switching which notes you put use and which you put emphasis on. So don't just learn a finger for a mode play it and say you don't get it. You need to learn the chord it relates to then practice playing that mode against that chord and making music with it. Do like you would any scale you learn play it straight up and down, in thirds, fourths, sequences, just jam with it make music.

I never heard the term Parallel Modes before I think Andrew Jones post sound like what your teacher is talking about. As I said there are major, minor, and dominant modes.

Ionian, and Lydian are Major
Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian are Minor
Mixolydian and Locrian are dominant (I consider the VII as sub of V)

Okay each one of those gives a different sound when played against the chord family. That is what you discover by playing the modes and finding the notes/colors they bring and you like. For example you are playing a C Ma7 chord. Diatonic choice would be C Ionian, but in your teachers term C Lydian would be a parrallel mode. Lydian is a major sounding mode and has a #4/#11 sound. You need to practice to hear the #4/#11 sound so you can use it when you want.

One more a C7 chord diatonic would be a C Mixolydian or B Locrian for 7b9 sound. For more outside Jazzier sound I might use C Phrygian or C Locrian. C Phrygian gives me b9, #9, b13. C Locrian would have b9, #9, b5, b13. Using them this way you have to learn the colors each mode can give you.

So there are lots of ways to use modes, but main thing is to practice them and get the sound in your ear so you can decide which ones you like and don't like. As your ear grows you will eventually like them all.

[KayCee]

It could be that he's referring to modal interchange.

In which case, a song in C major might borrow from any of it's associated C minor keys (natural, harmonic, melodic minors).

So, in C major, you might use a II-V borrowed from a minor key, such as D-7(b5)-G7(b9), and resolving to Cmaj7.

[Andrew Jones]

It could be that he's referring to modal interchange.

Yes, I believe your right and thats what I was trying to describe.

It could be that he's referring to modal interchange.

In which case, a song in C major might borrow from any of it's associated C minor keys (natural, harmonic, melodic minors).

So, in C major, you might use a II-V borrowed from a minor key, such as D-7(b5)-G7(b9), and resolving to Cmaj7.

While correct there's a aspect of this that doesn't feel right and I'd like to clarify.


It's Modal interchange,So you can use any mode, born from most scales.Typical uses being typical scales.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Andrew Jones

It's Modal interchange,So you can use any mode, born from most scales.Typical uses being typical scales.

Yes, in theory it could be any mode, with some being much more common than others.

[ryco]

... that has good info on relative and parallel modes and some interesting approaches on their use.

http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-modes.html

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by KayCee

It could be that he's referring to modal interchange.

In which case, a song in C major might borrow from any of it's associated C minor keys (natural, harmonic, melodic minors).

So, in C major, you might use a II-V borrowed from a minor key, such as D-7(b5)-G7(b9), and resolving to Cmaj7.

Modal Interchange and parallel keys are mainly used as composition tools. In an improv situation the important thing IMO is laying for the b13 on the V7 resolving to the 3rd of the now IMa7.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Modal Interchange and parallel keys are mainly used as composition tools.

Not sure I agree with this statement as written, Doc.

Every time you alter a V7 chord in major to something other than Mixolydian, it's going to be modal interchange. V7(b9) is going to be borrowed from Harmonic Minor (fifth mode) or Diminished (half-whole). V7(+9) is likely going to be borrowed from Melodic Minor (seventh mode) or maybe blues scale (tonic blues). Lydian b7 is also used as a V7(b5) option.

Also, the choice of Lydian b7 scales on dom7 chords that are secondary dominants would be Modal Interchange.

As an improvisor, I also sub Locrian and Locrian (nat 2) scales on a regular basis over II-7 chords.

I imagine that you use about all of these scale subs yourself in improv, so could you clarify your comment? Maybe I'm missing the boat on this.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by KayCee

Not sure I agree with this statement as written, Doc.

Every time you alter a V7 chord in major to something other than Mixolydian, it's going to be modal interchange. V7(b9) is going to be borrowed from Harmonic Minor (fifth mode) or Diminished (half-whole). V7(+9) is likely going to be borrowed from Melodic Minor (seventh mode) or maybe blues scale (tonic blues). Lydian b7 is also used as a V7(b5) option.

Also, the choice of Lydian b7 scales on dom7 chords that are secondary dominants would be Modal Interchange.

As an improvisor, I also sub Locrian and Locrian (nat 2) scales on a regular basis over II-7 chords.

I imagine that you use about all of these scale subs yourself in improv, so could you clarify your comment? Maybe I'm missing the boat on this.

For improv I see what you are talking about just as changing or adding color tones. I use Lydian b7 a lot it is my default for dominant chords because it handle the perfect 4th I consider an Avoid note or only a passing tone. In other words I see a chord, I look how it is functioning, is it diatonic or non-diatonic function, that gives me clue to types of colors I can or can't use. Other times I just look and say its a minor chord and I want a ma6 sound so I use Dorian. Now my ear may say that isn't happening, so might be a true VI chord and Aeolian is wanting to be used. But as I play more all of that goes away and I just think notes. I see a chord I think chord tones and colors. Scales and modes just a fretboard navagation tool.

Now when trying to write or analysis some music then I will get more into using terms like modal interchange and parallel key and those labels. Also use those as practice tools to look for new sounds.

So to sum it up what I have been working on lately is just focusing on what notes I am playing (5, 9, 11, 13 altered or not) not what scale or mode they come from.

There are many ways to use modes and I think musicians over time use them all.

Hope that makes sense.

[jaebee]

quick question on modal interchange.

is it legit to sub the dorian minor mode for the I chord, making the ii-v sub phryg - aeolian, or is that not ok since dorian isnt a 'true' minor key (as aeolian, h or m minor would be)

i played around with it a little and am not sure if i like the sounds or not because i dont have a proper chording instrument handy (usually have keyboard but its at the gf's)

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by jaebee

quick question on modal interchange.

is it legit to sub the dorian minor mode for the I chord, making the ii-v sub phryg - aeolian, or is that not ok since dorian isnt a 'true' minor key (as aeolian, h or m minor would be)

i played around with it a little and am not sure if i like the sounds or not because i dont have a proper chording instrument handy (usually have keyboard but its at the gf's)

I'm assuming by your question that the I chord is minor.

My opinion would be yes, because many songs in the modern era are written in modal keys. However, if the V chord was to be turned into a dom7 chord (to create a primary dominant), obviously you'd alter that Aeolian to have a major 3rd. That would be the fifth mode of melodic minor.

[jaebee]

ok, so should the V always be altered to be dom, or only if it is to immediately resolve back to the I (using modal interchange, this I would be a maj7 yes?)

edit: yes, so mixo b6. but another question, can aeolian or phrygian mode ever be used as the v when resolving to the maj7 of the i, or will the h & m minor modes generaly if not always be substituted to make the V dominant

thanks

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by jaebee

ok, so should the V always be altered to be dom, or only if it is to immediately resolve back to the I (using modal interchange, this I would be a maj7 yes?)

It's not that the V "should" be altered to dom, it just "could" be altered to dom. Here we're referring to a minor I chord.

So, (key of "C dorian minor"):

D-7 to G-7 to C-7 (could be phygian to aeolian to dorian)
or D-7 to G7 to C-7 (could be phrygian to "mixo b6" to dorian, I suppose).

Originally Posted by jaebee

edit: yes, so mixo b6. but another question, can aeolian or phrygian mode ever be used as the v when resolving to the maj7 of the i, or will the h & m minor modes generaly if not always be substituted to make the V dominant

thanks

It is common to have a minor V chord on major, such as:

(key of E maj)

Emaj7 - B-7

The V chord here would normally be dorian. Nice progression, too. (King Crimson, "I Talk To The Wind" chorus)

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by KayCee

I'm assuming by your question that the I chord is minor.

My opinion would be yes, because many songs in the modern era are written in modal keys. However, if the V chord was to be turned into a dom7 chord (to create a primary dominant), obviously you'd alter that Aeolian to have a major 3rd. That would be the fifth mode of melodic minor.

First, I'm not trying to argue with any of you. I find it interesting learning how other view things and throwing out my POV.

But modal tunes usually sticky to the one chord of the mode, they don't change chords much and when they do it's usually a key change. Modal tunes you hear chordal instrument comp with the IV-V chords of the parent key or they will use clusters stating a melody with the upper voice of the cluster. For example if a modal tune using D Dorian you will hear F and G triads in the comping patterns since using those establish the Dorian sound. Or use quartal harmony like a minor sus as a cluster and move it around in a counter melody.

Just my opinion, but sometimes I think people get too into labeling things. I've been around horn players and they can go nuts with labeling stuff. When is a #11 Lydian, Bebop major, a Blue note (b5), a passing tone, or the guy's finger slipped. The stuff is a great learning tool to find new sounds and good tool keep track of things you like and don't like.

Bottom line you play first and analyze second.

[jaebee]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Bottom line you play first and analyze second.

i completely agree, but knowing these things for me at least, really free up my playing when im improv, and especially help to compose.

i agree that the ear determines what goes and stays, but for me the mind is what gives me the page numbers i can turn to in the "choose your own ending" book, and that is something i need as a player

thanks for all of the info docbop and kaycee(you are more or less my informal instructor)