Patterns or Notes

**iriegnome** · #1 01-14-2009, 09:31 AM

So, 28 years of playing and touring. Never 1 lesson, EVER. Completely self taught to play. Now, I am in a band that has 3 guitar teachers in it. Again, please take note, I am completely self taught to play (the key word). I don't know my scales at all (or at least by name). I play patterns and I am pretty good at them.
The problem - 3 guitar teachers in my band...
Nothing wrong with increased knowledge for actual scales at all.

Situation - This is a B$$ch and way harder than I thought. I think I am suffering from the Old Dog/New tricks thing.
Any suggestions?

slybass3000 · #2 01-14-2009, 09:39 AM

Try to get the best out of each ones.

There is no way out. If you want to learn and get better, you will have to practice that stuff.

I'm sure they have different approachs to practice harmony so try to find the one that suits you best,

Sly

DocBop · #3 01-14-2009, 09:41 AM

Just remind yourself you are probably know the same things, but never learned the names for things. You spent a lot of time re-inventing the wheel. So now you have to take what they are talking about and figure out what you call it in your head. A lot of theory is about learning to communicate with other musicians.

**iriegnome** · #4 01-14-2009, 09:42 AM

According to my guitarists, my love of patterns is holding me back towards being a better player. I like the idea of being a better player, but I am much more a pattern kind of guy.

**iriegnome** · #5 01-14-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

Just remind yourself you are probably know the same things, but never learned the names for things. You spent a lot of time re-inventing the wheel. So now you have to take what they are talking about and figure out what you call it in your head. A lot of theory is about learning to communicate with other musicians.

Great in THEORY (insert pun here), but any suggestions?

jimmy rocket · #6 01-14-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

Just remind yourself you are probably know the same things, but never learned the names for things. You spent a lot of time re-inventing the wheel. So now you have to take what they are talking about and figure out what you call it in your head. A lot of theory is about learning to communicate with other musicians.

That's true. It's like learning a different language to say the same things.

I teach my students the notes first, and then watch them discover the patterns. Once they discover the patterns I explain them, but I always keep coming back to the notes within the pattern so that they feel comfortable conversing in either "language."

**iriegnome** · #7 01-14-2009, 09:59 AM

But, is playing a pattern (pick one) the same as playing a scale? OR can playing a scale in a pattern always work? I am so confused?

slybass3000 · #8 01-14-2009, 10:03 AM

Are your patterns based on the Blues scale? I figure you might be aware of that.

If so, by learning more traditionals scales and their functions and uses it will open up more possibilities for you to add in your sound palette,

Sly

4bpauly · #9 01-14-2009, 10:06 AM

give an example of a pattern you use (as best you can)

and it can be explained in theory.

pattern playing can hold you back, depending on how you use them.

the above was correct... theory is just giving names the patterns and realizing that there are reasons why those patterns work, and what you can do to change them up and make new sounds within them.

give an example and i'm sure someone here can point you in the right direction.

**iriegnome** · #10 01-14-2009, 10:07 AM

I have been told my standard patter is penatonic, so I would think it is blues/top 40 rock bassed

**iriegnome** · #11 01-14-2009, 10:14 AM

Example - Johnny B. Goode type of run using - A slid to C#, E slid F# kind of thing

mambo4 · #12 01-14-2009, 10:18 AM

A pattern is not a scale: on a bass, a scale can be played in many ways, a pattern is only one way to play it.

edit : looks like you know the names of the notes on your neck...here is my cut and paste response to navigating theory:
---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is kinda like this:

1.) learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) learn the minor scale and the dominant scale and how it relates to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
3.) understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
4.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of a major and minor scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.
8.) dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics.
Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick learning is how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords.

If Jazz is your thing, you will probably be learning theory forever.

slybass3000 · #13 01-14-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriegnome

I have been told my standard patter is penatonic, so I would think it is blues/top 40 rock bassed

So this is it. Pentatonics and Blues scales don't define harmony because they don't have enough notes in them for that. So by learning some diatonics scales and some theory with your GP you'll define a little bit more chords quality by playing in your patterns some of the notes that make a Major chord major sound,a dominant chord sound like a dominant and so on.

So learn harmony with your friends,

Sly

**iriegnome** · #14 01-14-2009, 10:24 AM

D@@m hard to do... I know my neck and the notes on it. I am starting to study the actual notes in the Major Scales (to start with) to build on my little knowledge of them. I agree I think that I know most of it, but I just don't know what it is called (for lack of any better term). Usually a wrong note here and there (# or b) is pretty common for me and this should correct those.

tZer · #15 01-14-2009, 10:34 AM

Even though I studied music since 4th grade and got a reasonably healthy does of theory in high school and from my very short college stint, I never felt I could actually apply music theory - so I never really tried.

What I found was that I actually knew and understood much more theory than I thought - I just didn't know what to call it. Recently (about 5 or 6 years ago) I decided I didn't like the idea that I didn't know what to call stuff, so I started paying more attention and now I feel like I can at least be conversant in music theory, even though I constantly discover that I still have tons to learn!

But one thing I did learn that's been pretty useful to me is that at bear minimum, simply knowing the difference between major and minor scales can carry you a very long way. All the extensions and quality coloration that guitar/piano players use everyday are just small variations off of major and minor scales.

If you know whether it's maj. or min. and your ears are OK, you'll be able to pick out the scale degrees that are getting shoved around and before you know it, you'll start to see what the 7th, 9th, b5's and so on mean to you as the bass player. A LOT of the time, those little add-ons don't really impact you at all in most pop and rock stuff. It's the jazz where those things start to become somewhat significant to you and that's only depending on how 'scholarly' those in the jazz band your playing are.

Kaneesel · #16 01-14-2009, 10:40 AM

start simple. most scales are played exactly the same anywhere on the neck. learn to recognize what minor scales would look like if they were dots on the frets for one place. If you dont know the actual letter names of each fret, learn that first....

buy The Bass Grimoire...

DudeistMonk · #17 01-14-2009, 11:23 AM

Just think of the scales as large patterns, learn how to play them up and down so you can clearly see them on the neck (there are many fingerings that work and you should explore these as well).

Major = All the notes from C to C with no sharps or flats W-W-H-W-W-W-H (W=2 frets a whole step H=1 fret a half step)

Minor = All the notes from A to A with no sharps of flats
W-H-W-W-H-W-W

*notice that they are related this is because the minor scale IS THE MAJOR SCALE if you start it from the 6th note.

Scales basically tell you what your "concrete options" are. What notes are in the key of the song your playing.

Once you are familiar with them focus on making music with them, create new patterns with them, jam with your drummer ext. You'll find many of YOUR patterns fit within certain scales and the scales will then offer you ideas for how to add to or improve upon them based on the situation.

jimmy rocket · #18 01-14-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaneesel

start simple. most scales are played exactly the same anywhere on the neck. learn to recognize what minor scales would look like if they were dots on the frets for one place. If you dont know the actual letter names of each fret, learn that first....

While most scales can be played exactly the same anywhere on the neck I think it's limited to think of them in that way. Sure if someone says play a c#minor scale its handy to know the pattern, but it may not be the most efficient movement from other scales/chords

rditmars · #19 01-14-2009, 03:32 PM

Download xlguitar.xls from the site below. It is easily adaptable for the bass. It allows you to selected different scales and modes in any key and shows the locations of the notes for that scale on the fretboard. Pretty clever.

http://spreadsheetpage.com/index.php...les_and_modes/

Jake of Bass · #20 01-14-2009, 03:33 PM

Theory is often a perception thing.

You see it as a pattern on the bass. Theory is taking that pattern and putting it into harmonic understanding, to intellectually understand what your ears perceive. Through this understanding a lot of time learning you begin to see other options that become available, and which options aren't desirable to take (you start to learn a few "rules" about music, about what works and what doesn't). With these parameters being understood you can begin to experiment with what can work outside of these parameters.

That's a really ambiguous way of looking at it, but it might help... ?