Peeps who can't keep a beat

[Joe Nerve]

When I was a kid we called it tone deaf, but I'm pretty sure that's not the proper terminology. I'm curious about people who can't keep a beat, clap in time with a song, or identify the 1 beat in a 4 beat count accurately... you know, the ones that look really stupid and funny dancing.

Can they be taught rhythem? Has there been any research done on this? Is it pointless to try and teach music to someone who can't tap their foot?

If so, should a student simply be told from day one, "Music isn't your thing, you'd be better off persuing something else," if they're challenged in such a way? Or is it just a handicap that can be overcome in time?

[mambo4]

I think it can be taught, but you have to have a student willing to endure the learning process in spite of a lack of 'natural' aptitude.

I am firmly opposed to an "either you got it or you don't " attitude in music, esp regarding teaching.
'Natural ' aptitude, or lack thereof, seems to me to be the end result of subtle feedback loop that begins in early youth:
If on first try you do something well, its positively received and encourages continued tries. Each time you try you strengthen the neural pathways and learn the task a little better. Over time this develops into "natural talent" .
If at first try you fail, the feedback is negative and it's not fun to keep trying.

The myth of 'natural talent' only serves to discourage those who find it challenging ("I guess I'm just no good") and delude those who take to it easily("I'm gifted! who needs effort?").

[LSquared]

My kids had terrible rhythm when they were young. They all grew out of it.

Maybe it's that postitive reinforcement thing mambo4 notes.

[pasta4lnch]

my ex girlfriend was like this - I tried for years to get her to clap in time or hum a melody on pitch. TOTALLY couldn't work . . .

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by mambo4

The myth of 'natural talent' only serves to discourage those who find it challenging ("I guess I'm just no good") and delude those who take to it easily("I'm gifted! who needs effort?").

With due respect, my op is different on this one, 'jus saying

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

With due respect, my op is different on this one, 'jus saying

I guess I did make a bit of a blanket statement there...but I do think that 'natural talent' is a bit of myth. Some people are clearly better than others, but I don't think it's because of some magic 'talent dust' they were sprinkled with in utero.

Talent is acquired, not innate: Nurture, not nature.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by mambo4

I guess I did make a bit of a blanket statement there...but I do think that 'natural talent' is a bit of myth. Some people are clearly better than others, but I don't think it's because of some magic 'talent dust' they were sprinkled with in utero.

Talent is acquired, not innate: Nurture, not nature.

+1 I understand what your saying, but I do know of players and students whom seem to just have it in the genetic code (this is the term we used amongst the circle of muso's) and have naturally gravitated and progressed beyond the scope of what I would consider a normal learning curve. Talent does exist, that's what makes the innovators, that show others a completely different angle, way and approach imo and ime. Interesting points, but only my 2 pence ; )

[tearalong]

When I started playing I had lots of trouble with notes on offbeats, syncopation,clave, latin rhythms etc. 1-2-3-4 was fine but that was about it.
I had an ear for it, in that I could program good stuff with midi and samples, but physically playing the notes in real time was a different thing.
I spent time with my teacher and practiced and it started to click.

[puddin tame]

Originally Posted by mambo4

I guess I did make a bit of a blanket statement there...but I do think that 'natural talent' is a bit of myth. Some people are clearly better than others, but I don't think it's because of some magic 'talent dust' they were sprinkled with in utero.

Talent is acquired, not innate: Nurture, not nature.

are you a neuroscientist or something? why should we give your opinion any weight over any other poster? you've been talking a lot but haven't backed anything up

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by puddin tame

are you a neuroscientist or something? why should we give your opinion any weight over any other poster? you've been talking a lot but haven't backed anything up

With due respect, an interesting difference of opinon, no weight to it, we are fellas here, talking the talk

[honeyiscool]

I think some people don't listen to enough booty music. My theory is that if you listen to enough booty music early on in your life, you'll be able to dance and you'll have a sense of rhythm.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

I think some people don't listen to enough booty music. My theory is that if you listen to enough booty music early on in your life, you'll be able to dance and you'll have a sense of rhythm.

+1 Yep, you gotta get your freak on

[Andysalina5]

I was watching a documentary on genetics and it turns out that a person get 50 percent of his talents or abilities from genetics and 50 percent from environment. That doesn't mean that a person without the genetics can't be better than a person with musician parents. Its called working twice as hard.

[puddin tame]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

With due respect, an interesting difference of opinon, no weight to it, we are fellas here, talking the talk

he was stating it in quite an authoritative manner

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Andysalina5

I was watching a documentary on genetics and it turns out that a person get 50 percent of his talents or abilities from genetics and 50 percent from environment. That doesn't mean that a person without the genetics can't be better than a person with musician parents. Its called working twice as hard.

+1 We are a very complex living organism, and we will view, judge, excel, learn our own attributes and tastes in very different ways.

[bass_snake]

Some people have it naturally. But you can also learn.

Fred

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by puddin tame

he was stating it in quite an authoritative manner

I see what your saying, but for me, an opinion is just that, how it's put forward I suppose is the nature to it's intended intent, being new to forums full stop, I've been surprised to how things can get more than a little misconstrued. I think it's the nature of this medium, a one dimensional form is not enough of a clue sometimes imo, but that's just my take on it, I'm learning as I go along

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Talent is acquired, not innate: Nurture, not nature.

I'm sorry but that's BS.

Ever since the age of 5, I've been able to name every note I've ever heard. Before I even took piano lessons, I was able to do that. And it's not like my parents were professional musicians. They liked music, but I didn't have early exposure to music. And by the age 9, I could probably do dictations better than the majority of music majors despite never having trained in that skill because I never needed to. I've always just been able to do it.

My absolute pitch has to be a natural gift, and I have seen no evidence that people who do not possess this skill can develop it. Talent cannot be learned, and if it could, I'd have met people with my set of skills by now who acquired them through practice and can exercise that skill to the same level of proficiency as I can. But sorry, I just haven't met that.

That's just one example. Absolute pitch is not something that makes or breaks a musician but it can help make someone's musical life a million times easier, since I do not have to look up tabs, notation, or anything like that unless I want to learn specifics of a certain fingering. Simply listening to music is enough for me to acquire and learn it.

It's important to note that people can make up for the lack of certain natural talents with lots of hard work and practice but to say that natural talent is a myth? Find me someone who trained his ears to be as good as mine were at age 5, and I'll support your claim.

[mambo4]

@puddin: you're right I am not a neuroscientist.
@honeyiscool: Perfect pitch, as I understand it, is in fact an innate talent and cannot be taught. My blanket statements are invalid, I stand corrected.

I just personally feel strongly that "either you got it or you don't" statements generally help no one learn.
I have seen too many people simply give up because they believe they "just don't got it" when really all they don't have is the will to make a sustained effort.
I see this phenomenon play out in all areas of life, not just music, so my personal feelings about this tend to creep into my words.
Sorry if I upset anyone with my absolute statements.
I promise it's only my opinion.

Who knows, maybe I'm fulla cr*p and the world is destined to be run by people innately born with "it"

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by mambo4

@puddin: you're right I am not a neuroscientist.
@honeyiscool: Perfect pitch, as I understand it, is in fact an innate talent and cannot be taught. My blanket statements are invalid, I stand corrected.

I just personally feel strongly that "either you got it or you don't" statements generally help no one learn.
I have seen too many people simply give up because they believe they "just don't got it" when really all they don't have is the will to make a sustained effort.
I see this phenomenon play out in all areas of life, not just music, so my personal feelings about this tend to creep into my words.
Sorry if I upset anyone with my absolute statements.
I promise it's only my opinion.

Who knows, maybe I'm fulla cr*p and the world is destined to be run by people innately born with "it"

For myself Mambo, I didn't read anything more into it, than a difference of opinion, just to let you know that