Pentatonics= King of melodic soloing?

[Stick_Player]

The relative major is the flat third of a minor key. Just sayin'...

No.

The naturally occurring "third tone" from a Minor scale is not a "flat third".

No such term.

Example: Key of B Minor, uses these notes - B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A, B.

However, one can ALSO alter the Sixth and Seventh tones by raising them one half-step. Using the example, the G or A can be raised to G# or A# and still be in B Minor.

Natural Minor: B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A, B

Harmonic Minor: B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A#, B

Melodic Minor: B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A#, B

Using YOUR term, "flat third", implies that one lowers the naturally occurring 'D' to a 'D♭'. No. D♭ is NOT the relative Major.

Just sayin'...

[plangentmusic]

Sorry to some of the posters, but... theory isn't an opinion. It's like math. There's one correct answer. If you don't know what a relative minor is, you should not be discussing theory.

As for pentatonics -- they're the easiest way to solo, so they're what most beginners use. But there are players who use just pentatonics and are masterful, a perfect example being Eric Clapton.

There are, however, certain progressions where they will not work. You have to at least play diatonically.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

The pentatonic scale has no "avoid" notes. Since there are no avoid notes, all the others will sound good. It has many cool uses. The pentatonic scale can also sounds dated and boring as your melodic interest is a bit limited

Great point Mike and for that very reason all new players should start there first. Learn to use them then expand from them. As said they are limiting, but that is sometimes a great thing for a new player. Start simple and develop from there.

[Spin Doctor]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

No.

The naturally occurring "third tone" from a Minor scale is not a "flat third".

No such term.

Example: Key of B Minor, uses these notes - B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A, B.

However, one can ALSO alter the Sixth and Seventh tones by raising them one half-step. Using the example, the G or A can be raised to G# or A# and still be in B Minor.

Natural Minor: B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A, B

Harmonic Minor: B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A#, B

Melodic Minor: B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A#, B

Using YOUR term, "flat third", implies that one lowers the naturally occurring 'D' to a 'D♭'. No. D♭ is NOT the relative Major.

Just sayin'...

Yep, you're right, thanks!

[baddarryl]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

Umm I'm pretty sure the relative minor is the sixth degree of the major.

Example: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

A is the relative minor of C. A is the sixth degree of the C major scale.

Yes sorry, late night typo there! I did use this relationship for some fills in church today and it sounded good and was fun! This community rules! Thanks TB!

[Mike Dimin]

Pentatonics are a building blocks as are arpeggios, scales and modes. Yet the two things most lacking with bass solos are a knowledge of the melody (more resource material for solos) and a good working knowledge of functional harmony. As a little exercise take the tune footprints (attached) and tell me how you go about soloing over it. Sure C Minor Pentatonic is great, but limited, what else could you do to make it interesting?

[Stick_Player]

As a little exercise take the tune footprints (attached) and tell me how you go about soloing over it.

Without getting into what I might use to play over these changes, I'd first start out be realizing that this is essentially a 12-bar C Minor Blues.

Change the time signature to 6/4 and you'll have 12 measures.

The D7 is a sub for Ab7 and the Db7 is a sub for G7.

I'll think about this one.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Pentatonics are a building blocks as are arpeggios, scales and modes. Yet the two things most lacking with bass solos are a knowledge of the melody (more resource material for solos) and a good working knowledge of functional harmony. As a little exercise take the tune footprints (attached) and tell me how you go about soloing over it. Sure C Minor Pentatonic is great, but limited, what else could you do to make it interesting?

I wish I knew how to come up with solos. Or really come up with any bass lines.

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

Without getting into what I might use to play over these changes, I'd first start out be realizing that this is essentially a 12-bar C Minor Blues.

Change the time signature to 6/4 and you'll have 12 measures.

The D7 is a sub for Ab7 and the Db7 is a sub for G7.

I'll think about this one.

Do so! because C minor blues is the easy way out.

[dalconthenovice]

Originally Posted by Intenzity

Pentatonics are as hip as you want to make them be. You dont have to play E Pentatonic over E min, you can play A, B or F# minor too, plus a gazillion others. Jaco threw in some pentatonics on just about every solo he ever did somewhere, in some places he used them extensively. His famous groups-of-five lick comes to mind.


Here are some patterns that a lot of saxophone players use that I transferred to bass clef. Lots of cool stuff to work out.

Bergonzi Pentatonic Patterns for Bass

GIVE THIS MAN SOME INTERNETS! this is a wonderful set of excersizes

all of a sudden the pentatonic sounds fresh to me again

[Stick_Player]

Do so! because C minor blues is the easy way out.

Thinking that there maybe 'better' changes - measures 17-20.

Instead of: | D7 | D7 | Db7 | Db7 | - from the 'Real Book"

How about: | F#m7b5 | B7 | Em7b5 | A7 |

Then you could use E Harmonic Minor to D Harmonic Minor scales. Just one suggestion.

Or: | F#m7b5 | F7b5 | Em7b5 | Eb7b5 |

A lot of possibilities...

Or Wayne Shorter's: | F#m7b5 | F7b5 | E7#9 | A7#9 |

[lowfreqgeek]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Pentatonics are a building blocks as are arpeggios, scales and modes. Yet the two things most lacking with bass solos are a knowledge of the melody (more resource material for solos) and a good working knowledge of functional harmony. As a little exercise take the tune footprints (attached) and tell me how you go about soloing over it. Sure C Minor Pentatonic is great, but limited, what else could you do to make it interesting?

Ok, I'll bite.

The melody contains both an A natural over the Cm7 and a D natural over the Fm7, so Dorian is a natural choice. However, I'm more inclined to work out of the Eb Lydian mode. But I also like "eastern" sounding scales (b2 interval...), so I might also work out of the Bb "Ionian-b6" (what is that, anyway?).

Moving on to the Fm7, I would generally change the Eb Lydian I was in over the Cm7 to an Eb Mixolydian. Or... for a little more spice, an E-alt (F melodic minor) fits if you are mindful the the E vs. Eb. In a solo, I think it can fit if used judiciously (passing tone, on a weak beat, as a leading note, etc). Another good choice over the Fm7 is the 4th mode of the C Harmonic minor, which is basically an F Dorian-#4. The B-natural leads back into the Cm7 nicely (IMO), even though the melody has a Bb in it.

Over the D7, the melody has a B natural in it, so the obvious choice there is a Mixolydian. But since I like the b2 interval, I will sometimes also use a Mixo-b2. The Db7 is generally a good place for another Mixo, or a Lydian Dominant. It has some common notes with the D Mixo-b2 AND the C Dorian, so (to me) the Db Lyd-Dom is a nice alternative.

Of course, I had to think about what it is that I normally do on Footprints, but it's been a long while since I played it. That's kinda the basic idea of what's happening, though. I'm honestly not thinking all that so much as just hearing it. I might also use some alternate chords if appropriate - such as an Eb-Aug in place of the D7. Depends on the situation and how straight or bluesy it is.

Good exercise, though!

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by lowfreqgeek

Ok, I'll bite.

The melody contains both an A natural over the Cm7 and a D natural over the Fm7, so Dorian is a natural choice.

That is the crux of it. There is an A natural over the Cm7 chord and an D natural over the Fm7 chord. This points to 2 different keys/modes -C Dorian over the Cm7 moving to F Dorian over the Fm7. If your thinking pitch axis then A to Ab is the crucial idea. You can create some great sequenced lines one having an A natural the next having an Ab

Originally Posted by lowfreqgeek

However, I'm more inclined to work out of the Eb Lydian mode. But I also like "eastern" sounding scales (b2 interval...), so I might also work out of the Bb "Ionian-b6" (what is that, anyway?).

Eb Lydian is, as you know, Bb major (C dorian). As for the Bb "Ionian-b6", if you play the chromatic F, F#, G over a C Dorian, you end up with C Bebop Dorian -NICE CHOICE!

Originally Posted by lowfreqgeek

Moving on to the Fm7, I would generally change the Eb Lydian I was in over the Cm7 to an Eb Mixolydian. Or... for a little more spice, an E-alt (F melodic minor) fits if you are mindful the the E vs. Eb. In a solo, I think it can fit if used judiciously (passing tone, on a weak beat, as a leading note, etc). Another good choice over the Fm7 is the 4th mode of the C Harmonic minor, which is basically an F Dorian-#4. The B-natural leads back into the Cm7 nicely (IMO), even though the melody has a Bb in it.

I think that the key here is to note that the Fm7 is in a different tonality then the Cm7 (based on the melody). Again you seem to be gravitating to that #4 in the Dorian mode. Here is the challenge now. Instead of thinking about it in two or more different modes, think about it as overlapping modes, finding the differences in key notes (like the A to Ab). Now as you develop a solo, your sense of melody is so very much stronger.

Originally Posted by lowfreqgeek

Over the D7, the melody has a B natural in it, so the obvious choice there is a Mixolydian. But since I like the b2 interval, I will sometimes also use a Mixo-b2. The Db7 is generally a good place for another Mixo, or a Lydian Dominant. It has some common notes with the D Mixo-b2 AND the C Dorian, so (to me) the Db Lyd-Dom is a nice alternative.

Of course, I had to think about what it is that I normally do on Footprints, but it's been a long while since I played it. That's kinda the basic idea of what's happening, though. I'm honestly not thinking all that so much as just hearing it. I might also use some alternate chords if appropriate - such as an Eb-Aug in place of the D7. Depends on the situation and how straight or bluesy it is.

Good exercise, though!

Not going to worry about the turnaround right now. But, then again, we can always play in C Minor Pentatonic.

[Stick_Player]

Not going to worry about the turnaround right now. But, then again, we can always play in C Minor Pentatonic.

C Minor Pentatonic is the easy way out.

[lowfreqgeek]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

I think that the key here is to note that the Fm7 is in a different tonality then the Cm7 (based on the melody). Again you seem to be gravitating to that #4 in the Dorian mode. Here is the challenge now. Instead of thinking about it in two or more different modes, think about it as overlapping modes, finding the differences in key notes (like the A to Ab). Now as you develop a solo, your sense of melody is so very much stronger.

Oops... I just realized what I originally said about changing the Eb Lydian to Eb Mixo wasn't what I meant... That *should* have been Eb Ionian, which would then have all the same tonality as Eb Lydian with the single exception of that A/Ab. Which is exactly what (I think...) you're hinting at here.

Which leads me to this: why choose the Eb Lyd/Ion to work out of in this progression? I think it has to do with the fact that the Eb is the common tone between Cm7 and Fm7 - it's the pivot point that holds it all together. As for my use of the #4 in the Dorian mode, I've just realized that it probably comes from the tritone sub (F#dim in Cm, Bdim in Fm) - which is exactly how I use it. In fact, playing off the tritone idea, from Eb Lydian you can make use of an Am7(b5) leading into the Fm7 chord (Eb Ionian mode...). I love using the tritone as a pivot and always find ways to work it in, even if it's subconsciously. I'm a big fan of Anthony Jackson.

So many things you can do with such a "simple" song. Or we could just stick with C Minor Pentatonic.

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by lowfreqgeek

Oops... I just realized what I originally said about changing the Eb Lydian to Eb Mixo wasn't what I meant... That *should* have been Eb Ionian, which would then have all the same tonality as Eb Lydian with the single exception of that A/Ab. Which is exactly what (I think...) you're hinting at here.

Which leads me to this: why choose the Eb Lyd/Ion to work out of in this progression? I think it has to do with the fact that the Eb is the common tone between Cm7 and Fm7 - it's the pivot point that holds it all together. As for my use of the #4 in the Dorian mode, I've just realized that it probably comes from the tritone sub (F#dim in Cm, Bdim in Fm) - which is exactly how I use it. In fact, playing off the tritone idea, from Eb Lydian you can make use of an Am7(b5) leading into the Fm7 chord (Eb Ionian mode...). I love using the tritone as a pivot and always find ways to work it in, even if it's subconsciously. I'm a big fan of Anthony Jackson.

So many things you can do with such a "simple" song. Or we could just stick with C Minor Pentatonic.

If you think about C Dorian and F Dorian. All tones are common tones except for the A/Ab. SO to expand upon your idea of the Eb pivot point, you can also:

C Dorian and C Aeolian
D Phrygian and D Locrian
Eb Lydian and Eb Ionian
F Mixolydian and F Dorian
G Aeolian and G Phrygian
Bb Ionian and Bb Lydian

I am a bit confused on your usage of tritone subs. Tritone subs only work on Dominant 7th chords as two Dominant 7th chords a tritone away, share the same 3rd and 7th (guide tones). A Cm7 does not have a tritone. Unless you are first substituting a C7 for the Cm7 (and using the Eb as a "blue" note) and then tritone sub from there.

Mike

[lowfreqgeek]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

I am a bit confused on your usage of tritone subs. Tritone subs only work on Dominant 7th chords as two Dominant 7th chords a tritone away, share the same 3rd and 7th (guide tones). A Cm7 does not have a tritone. Unless you are first substituting a C7 for the Cm7 (and using the Eb as a "blue" note) and then tritone sub from there.

Mike

My "tritone sub" is really only an adaptation to the Dorian mode tonality. So whereas the tritone sub for a C7 would be F#m7(b5), I've simply flatted the b7 from the F# (E->Eb) and voiced it F# C Eb. Since we're in the Dorian mode, the 6th of C (A) is the b3 of F#, so we end up with an F#dim7. Going from the Fm7 to the Cm7 is the same idea - and the 6th of F (D) is the b3 of B, so the Bdim7 sub works there as well.

In reality, it isn't a tritone substitution in the traditional sense, but it borrows from the concept.

Hey man, it's Jazz!

You've definitely helped me to clarify some things in my own mind, or at least helped me to think deeper about what I'm hearing and doing. Thanks!

[MonetBass]

From a melodic standpoint, I disagree. Using only the pentatonic scale isn't very melodic because you're limiting yourself to only five of the scale degrees. IMO of course.

[Stick_Player]

Let's get to the turn around.

And use Shorter's changes, not those boring Real Book ones.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by lowfreqgeek

In fact, playing off the tritone idea, from Eb Lydian you can make use of an Am7(b5) leading into the Fm7 chord (Eb Ionian mode...).

I see where you're coming from with this, but wouldn't it be easier just to recognize Am7(b5) is an inversion of Cmin6, which is suggested by the A in the melody line under the Cmin7 chord?