The Physics of Music

**bassybill** · #1 09-12-2009, 12:39 AM

Do you think learning about music can be enhanced by a sound understanding of its physical basis?

Consider the folllowing questions:

Why do two notes an octave apart have the same name?
Why are there 12 different notes?
What do "equal temperament" and "just intonation" mean?
Why does a fifth sound "correct" at point A in tune B, but a flat fifth sounds horribly wrong?
Why does middle C played on a piano sound different to middle C on a guitar if they're the same note?

These questions and others like them are the sort of things many learners might wonder about. I don't particularly want to discuss these questions (or the validity of the assumptions underlying some of them) here, so if you would like to do so, please start a separate thread. What I'm interested in is your views on the extent to which a sound grasp of physical concepts like frequency and waveforms can support a person's musical development and help them understand the answers to questions like the examples above.

So, can understanding some aspects of physics help people learn about music?

insomniac2295 · #2 09-12-2009, 12:46 AM

I suppose it's all a matter if you would be able to take anything away from it or not.

Drawing upon the knowledge of how the brain anticipates what's coming next in the song based on what you've been playing and the typical songs that the person is used to hearing can be helpful when composing a piece of music.

I know that after hearing a physicist explain fundamental frequencies and overtones, I was able to understand it a lot better than when a musician tried to explain it to me.

Chris K · #3 09-12-2009, 12:48 AM

IMO it's natural, for a musician, to be interested in those physical aspects. So it's not a real choice. You''ll pick up some of it one way or the other. Musically,speaking, I would say that really studying them is not really necessary.

For bass players, however, some physical aspects are very important, especially the behavior of sound waves at low frequencies.

standupright · #4 09-12-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Why does a fifth sound "correct" at point A in tune B, but a flat fifth sound horribly wrong?

i don't think that has anything to do with physics. but more to do with the eveolution of music and the "ear".

insomniac2295 · #5 09-12-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by standupright

i don't think that has anything to do with physics. but more to do with the eveolution of music and the "ear".

I think you're on to something! I remember reading a passage in "This Is Your Brain On Music" that went along the lines of that.

**bassybill** · #6 09-12-2009, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by standupright

i don't think that has anything to do with physics. but more to do with the eveolution of music and the "ear".

Actually, I'd see it as having some very real basis in physics (although the second part of what you say is also true to some extent). I'm trying to keep the focus on general discussion, rather than the specifics of each question I listed. But having said that, I think the fact that our perceived consonance of intervals can be linked to a numerical consideration of frequencies is a good example here.

Here's a link for those who'd like more details (look at the frequency ratios of pairs of notes, and play the midi files; for example, comparing equal-tempered intervals and their just equivalents can be interesting).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_intervals

bobknowsbass · #7 09-12-2009, 03:57 AM

I say somewhat agree. While it is interesting to know how notes interact with each other on a molecular level, I think one can be a great musician while simply chalking it up to, "It sounds GOOD" Bach wrote some of the greatest music ever back when we though everything was made up of 4 elements.

**bassybill** · #8 09-12-2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobknowsbass

I say somewhat agree. While it is interesting to know how notes interact with each other on a molecular level, I think one can be a great musician while simply chalking it up to, "It sounds GOOD" Bach wrote some of the greatest music ever back when we though everything was made up of 4 elements.

I totally agree that it's possible to be a great musician on an entirely intuitive, "it sound goods" level. But I think the theoretical aspects under discussion can really help understand WHY "it sounds good", and in turn this can sometimes help musical development, especially for those of us without the natural talent of someone like Bach (pretty much everyone).

bobknowsbass · #9 09-12-2009, 04:21 AM

I tell my students that studying theory is basically a study of "why this sounds 'good' (C MAJ) and that sounds 'bad' (F#dim/Bb)" Maybe Cal State Fullerton was way behind ten years ago, but the study of the physics of sound was strangely lacking in the course requirements of Music Ed. majors. (I'm sure it didn't exist, and if it did, I sure missed it when I left CSUF after two years for the local JC, they had a hipper jazz program

) I find the study of the properties of sound VERY interesting, but is it taught in the Universities? If not, should it be?

WalterBush · #10 09-12-2009, 04:35 AM

Acoustic physics were offered as a course at the community college I attended, at least. When wearing my recording engineer or soundguy hat, I couldn't operate effectively without some understanding of physics. Working exclusively through instinct and trial-and-error doesn't generally get you called back to work, IME.

I think, too, that if more people understood how the human ear hears, and had enough of a physics background to understand why some speakers sound better than others, why some albums are difficult to listen for more than five minutes while we can listen to other albums over and over, or why some chord progressions 'work' while others sound completely random, etc, the music industry in general would be forced to produce a much better product, in general, for public consumption.

In other words, a little knowledge and effort can result in much greater enjoyment of a wide variety of music, and a greater understanding of human expression, than simply putting the iPod earbuds in and listening to top 40 pop music all day. Basic music theory, and some of the math and acoustic principles behind it, used to part of a good classical education, and resulted in greater appreciation for art, without sacrificing the visceral emotions expressed in folk or pop styles. I'm not sure where we started to lose that as a society. In my opinion of course. It's early in the morning, and I could just be overly tired.

**bassybill** · #11 09-12-2009, 04:40 AM

It looks like they teach it at MTU, or at least make info available to students. It seems that it's part of a physics curriculum rather than a music one (but then they don't actually list any music courses there).

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/Physicsofmusic.html

JimmyM · #12 09-12-2009, 08:06 AM

Some aspects of physics are cool to learn, but if you get too wrapped up in it, all you end up doing is confusing yourself. Like "Why are there 12 notes"? Who cares? There just are. I've seen guys on here paralyze themselves because they can't reconcile some aspect of acoustical physics or theory with the actual playing. I'm all about musical education, but sometimes people let thinking get in the way of playing.

**bassybill** · #13 09-12-2009, 09:45 AM

Jimmy - you're a player I respect immensely, as you know. How much of this stuff do you understand and how much do you decide is not helpful for you?

You can be honest with me, I'm British.

GlennPagano · #14 09-12-2009, 09:55 AM

I am a freshman at Millersville University and majoring in physics. I think if you learn about the physics of music it will make you a better understanding musician but if you don't learn it, it wont hurt you. For example an octave means that if you have a wave function at a lower octave of note A and then get another wave function at higher octave of note A. You will see that the only thing that changes is the frequency of the function. This fact will not necessary hurt you on your way to becoming a better musician but it is something to keep in mind. I think the physics of music would help a lot if you are setting up your amplifiers in a room and you want the best sound possible in all areas.

Billnc · #15 09-12-2009, 10:01 AM

Learning physics and wave theory helps you talk smack with the soundman.

**Freddels** · #16 09-12-2009, 10:03 AM

Acoustics of Music was a required course at North Texas. It was an interesting class.

**bassybill** · #17 09-12-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billnc

Learning physics and wave theory helps you talk smack with the soundman.

I was definitely thinking more of musical theory rather than tech stuff about sound reproduction. But it's okay if a couple of comments have somewhat missed the whole point of the thread by commenting on the latter. It's interesting to see the two aspects apparently getting confused (and I use that word in its most literal sense).

**bassybill** · #18 09-12-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennPagano

I am a freshman at Millersville University and majoring in physics. I think if you learn about the physics of music it will make you a better understanding musician but if you don't learn it, it wont hurt you. For example an octave means that if you have a wave function at a lower octave of note A and then get another wave function at higher octave of note A. You will see that the only thing that changes is the frequency of the function. This fact will not necessary hurt you on your way to becoming a better musician but it is something to keep in mind. I think the physics of music would help a lot if you are setting up your amplifiers in a room and you want the best sound possible in all areas.

Okay, thanks - would you mind saying what physics you studied before starting your current course? Your description of octaves made me a little curious.

Billnc · #19 09-12-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassybill

I was definitely thinking more of musical theory rather than tech stuff about sound reproduction.

They interlock, both are manipulating sound. Your notes correspond to his graphic eq. If the sound crew is kind enough to hit us with multiple feedback squeals at one time, it gives us a chord.

The same rules for shaping sound in a room apply to an arranger, what effect you get when you combine the timbres of different instruments etc.

Earthday · #20 09-12-2009, 10:41 AM

In my opinion it is interesting to learn, but almost useless on a practical level. There are just too many basic philosophical questions unanswered to draw any real helpful conclusions. For example, we know that there is a relation between a fifth over a root "sounding good" and the fact that the frequency of the waves follow a fairly even pattern with each other. But we can't say WHY waves with even patterns sound good to us once our brain registers them. We can't say why certain waves will sound good to us in one timbre, but not in another. Or in one situation, and not in another. It all goes back to the mind/body problem really.

Really, the most important aspect of physics a musician should know is how too loud of a volume effects you and the crowd's ears.