The Players School-Jeff Berlin. Halp!

[onlyclave]

Hey Fountain Boy

I studied music at the University level for 6 years and they didn't teach me how to play in the pocket, how to groove, how to sight read, how to get a gig or any of that other stuff you're complaining about. They really didn't even teach me how to play bass.

Their job was teach to teach me about the art of music. How I applied it was up to me. I could have been a performance major, a composition major, a music theory major, a music history major, a music education major, etc. but I never had the expectation that I was going to be taught how to play bass or groove. It was up to me to apply that information to my own practice schedule. You could say that music school taught me how to practice.

From your description, that seems to be what the Player's School did and that wasn't the information you wanted.

[NicJimBass]

onlyclave- you summed up my novel into a pamphlet!

[KeithPas]

Originally Posted by fountain boy

Jeff Berlin the person, i had no problems with. (which preceded a blow up of his) He indeed got on my case right before i bounced, when he (by way of David Via, the drum teacher & Matt Bokulic, the theory & harmony teacher) found out that i was trying to get a copy of a transcription that we had to sightread & solo over, days prior to it being released to our ensemble class as a whole.

That annoyed him, and he shamed me before our ensemble class about it. My feelings were deeply hurt + i was embarrased to be yelled at in that manner, but what can you do? I rolled out. Jeff's reasonings were along the lines that i wasn't fully absorbing the materials at hand, before i was trying to get a headstart on the following weeks tune.

Despondent & depressed at being down there for 8 weeks and us not delving into the stlye of playing that i was after (rhythmicy & pockety) my solemn take was that i was mislead in how i viewed what the School had to offer. I mean, to my ears, i really didn't sound like the groovy bass
players that i wanted to understand & emulate what it is they were doing, all the rhythmic & pocket stuff, with the masterful fills. Also, i was barely treading water to keep up, as much as was being thrown at us, and demanded, so any little advantage i could get, i was gonna take it. Besides, after class, i had to sling those pizzas, so my time was limited. (and that's not to say that i was the only cat down there that had to report to work in the afternoon after class)

Also, it pissed me off that i couldn't look over the following weeks tune, i mean, all the money i'm paying this school and i can't get a copy of the transcription a few days early, are you kidding me? What was it hurting? Besides, we played tunes week after week and had i continued in my studies there, i'm sure i would've taken notice to some reoccuring patterns in the language of music, as most songs follow the circle of 5th's & vary only slightly in a different chord here & there & maybe differering rhythms. (we studying & analyzing jazz standards)

I also noted that those guys that could read a bit better than i could, when you took the sheet music away from them, they had nothing, and as bass players, we dread that. I came to the conclusion that i would perfer being an ignorant street musican with great timing & feel, as opposed to a studied Berlin clone with little to offer any prospective bandmates, as i relied on sheet music as opposed to having a dynamic ear.

Getting publically lambasted over something as ridiculous as you descibed sucks and the fact that you were embarrassed by someone you look up to makes it even worse, it was totally uncalled for.
That having been said, it appears as if that incident, and some unrealistic expectations colored your entire experience.

[Lorenzini]

I studied at the school for a bunch of months. I learned a ton and listened to what the teachers had to say. I benefited from it completely and never had any experience even close to yours fountain boy.

Tell Jeff in your private lesson with him, that you would like to get your sightreading chops up. He'll help you out with that, and everything else bass-playing related.

Of course, you'll only get something out of the school if you practice - and I did. Those who didn't complained that they weren't getting anything about it. Those who did are gigging professionally right now.

[fountain boy]

[quote=NicJimBass;5969736]Okay, after reading this, and I may be the only one that thinks this, but it seems like the problem was you, not the school.

First off, if you were looking to learn certain things, cool, but it shows plain as day on the website just what to expect to learn at the school. There is nothing about learning to groove or play a pocket.

Sorry Nic, i stopped reading after i got thus far.

Our takes on what constitutes a great bass player may differ greatly, but, to paraphase Hamlet 'To groove, or not to groove, is the question'.

There should be no other idealogy propounded intially, other than focusing on timing & pocket playing, imho. A burgenoning bass player, looking for guidance & tutelage, not inculcated with this principle, will forever be a frustrated and out of his element bass player, out from under Jeff's loving arms & insulated enviorment.

To speak to your statement that Jeff's website doesn't have the requisite that students will be required to sit down and display some understanding of syncopation & drum interaction (which should be mandatory) is to me, sort've like going to a restuaraunt to eat and not expecting your meal to be served on a plate. It's something that shouldn't have to be mentioned or asked for, imo. It just is. (or should be)

What Mr. Berlin pre-supposes, again, is that, if you can play jazz, you can play anything (this is a loose paraphrase) which is a fallacy. Having an understanding of jazz supposes that the other basic tenets of bass playing are grasped and in tact. (timing & pocket) Being fluent in jazz almost implies that you are familiar with the other 'lessser' styles of music.

Can i really learn & grasp the spirit of a complex language (communication) without have some basic tenets of speech under my belt? It's crawling before you can walk.

Sure, i went wrong in estimating that a bass school wouldn't let me progress any further, if i didn't have my timing together. With jazz playing, you can possibly scoot by with poor timing (we were always walking quarter notes w/ a triplet thrown in for that upright walking effect) as the primary focus was note choice, not on feel, not on timing, or any other real world coping skills that one should be exposed to.

I found myself deficient, when i would walk over over to the Sam Ash or drive down to the Guitar Center off Hillsborough and hear guys (that may, or may have not known theory) that understood & displayed the spirit of true bass playing, imho.

Ok, so the majority of what they played were from the pentatonic scale, with pentatonic bass runs. However, they all seemed to make everyone in the vicinty feel good & grin from ear to ear after listening to them for a short while.

That's bass playing that i'm after.

[HaVIC5]

That's bass playing that i'm after.

Not to be rude, but...really? The kind that people play at Sam Ash and Guitar Center?

[Wilbyman]

Originally Posted by NicJimBass

Okay, after reading this, and I may be the only one that thinks this, but it seems like the problem was you, not the school

Originally Posted by fountain boy

[of Sam Ash wankers]....That's bass playing that i'm after.

Well, I don't know what to say about this. I find it somewhat analogous to studying british literature at Oxford and complaining that they are beating "that oldy english" over your head when you would rather read Robert Ludlum because you "feel him"...and why are they stuck in the 1700's anyway? Don't they know that nobody reads that stuff in the real world anymore?

I'm really perplexed as to why you went in the first place. You obviously 1) do not like the way he plays 2) do not agree with Jeff's teaching philosophies and 3) have no interest in what most would agree is a semi-traditional musical education (harmony/theory/reading).

If I fault the school at all, it's because they didn't realize sooner that you were a poor fit and cut you loose. I think they owed you that much.

[NicJimBass]

To the OP, look into what PSOM offers and see if it's for you. If you simply want to be a feel player, which is what I am/ was, and what fountainboy wantes to be, then this is probably not the school for you. If you want to learn the fundamentals of not just bass playing, but music in general, then check them out. But for the love of Pete, don't expect them to do something if they clearly advertise something else!

Foutainboy, I'll end with this- I understand what you're saying about the guys at SA & GC... I've been to both many times and have heard both good and bad players. I've always wanted to be a good player, but I am not a self-motivated learner at all. Regardless, my ear is great, and I can add something to most any song I hear. HOWEVER, in the music industry, as a working musician, I don't think with my limited knowledge/ reading/ whatever, that I would stand much of a chance. I'm adding those things to my arsenal, along with my already-good timing and groove, in order to maximize my deadliness within the industry. If you're cool being one of those guys who go to the music store to show off his chops, by all means, but it seems that the only people who are really listening are other shoppers and the staff.

[fountain boy]

Originally Posted by Wilbyman

Well, I don't know what to say about this. I find it somewhat analogous to studying british literature at Oxford and complaining that they are beating "that oldy english" over your head when you would rather read Robert Ludlum because you "feel him"...and why are they stuck in the 1700's anyway? Don't they know that nobody reads that stuff in the real world anymore?

I'm really perplexed as to why you went in the first place. You obviously 1) do not like the way he plays 2) do not agree with Jeff's teaching philosophies and 3) have no interest in what most would agree is a semi-traditional musical education (harmony/theory/reading).

If I fault the school at all, it's because they didn't realize sooner that you were a poor fit and cut you loose. I think they owed you that much.

Here, let me untie the knot for you. The Player School welcomes one & all, due needing funding ($) primarily. That's the short answer.

There's a reason why Berklee, MIT and a host of other accredited schools require you to audition first. Their not in the business of spoon feeding anyone. You must demonstrate to them that you are competent enough to get their instructors time/attention. If you are studying the bass guitar, whoever asseses your video, must see that you posses an awareness, or demonstrate to them, that you can sit in a pocket, among other things (like knowing a variety of styles, etc). There not backtracking to make sure 1st base is covered. No way on God's green earth, even if i could've paid them cash money for the whole semester upfront, would i be permitted to study up there. It's just not going to happen.

Also, if i lacked rudimentary reading skills, trying to undertake reading anything besides Green Eggs & Ham by Dr. Seuss would be futility, let alone something from the 17th century, lol.

[onlyclave]

Any private school needs your funding to stay afloat, it's just that Berklee can't afford to have you there flunking out when you spot in the school could be filled by someone who will stay for the duration of their degree program and pay the full amount or tuition.

You shouldn't be blaming The Player's School for anything other than not cutting you loose sooner and sending you to a guitar store bass teacher to get what you were after.

[bassandbeyond]

Gosh, I think we're being awfully hard on Fountainboy here. I know firsthand how disappointing it can be to meet one of your idols and find out that you just don't "click" with them personally or educationally. I actually had the exact same experience with Jeff 20 years ago, and I wound up mostly avoiding him for the rest of the year. But in retrospect, I regret that and wish that I had just gotten over the personal differences in order to glean as much information as possible from him. You have indicated that you did get a lot of new information to work on during your time at PSOM, so I would say that means you did get your money's worth, even if you don't see the relevance of it all yet. Yes, pocket and groove are important. Yes, knowledge of harmony and jazz vocabulary are important, too. These are not mutually exclusive approaches to making music. It is all stuff that you will need to master sooner or later.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

Gosh, I think we're being awfully hard on Fountainboy here. I know firsthand how disappointing it can be to meet one of your idols and find out that you just don't "click" with them personally or educationally. I actually had the exact same experience with Jeff 20 years ago, and I wound up mostly avoiding him for the rest of the year. But in retrospect, I regret that and wish that I had just gotten over the personal differences in order to glean as much information as possible from him. You have indicated that you did get a lot of new information to work on during your time at PSOM, so I would say that means you did get your money's worth, even if you don't see the relevance of it all yet. Yes, pocket and groove are important. Yes, knowledge of harmony and jazz vocabulary are important, too. These are not mutually exclusive approaches to making music. It is all stuff that you will need to master sooner or later.

Yeah you're right. Sorry about that. You can't blame the guy because it wasn't his bag.

[fountain boy]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

Gosh, I think we're being awfully hard on Fountainboy here. I know firsthand how disappointing it can be to meet one of your idols and find out that you just don't "click" with them personally or educationally. I actually had the exact same experience with Jeff 20 years ago, and I wound up mostly avoiding him for the rest of the year. But in retrospect, I regret that and wish that I had just gotten over the personal differences in order to glean as much information as possible from him. You have indicated that you did get a lot of new information to work on during your time at PSOM, so I would say that means you did get your money's worth, even if you don't see the relevance of it all yet. Yes, pocket and groove are important. Yes, knowledge of harmony and jazz vocabulary are important, too. These are not mutually exclusive approaches to making music. It is all stuff that you will need to master sooner or later.

Thank you bassandbeyond.

I have no problems embracing our differing of opinions of those that attended The Players School, or those who have interacted with Jeff during the years.

I knew nothing of Jeff previously, wasn't a fan of his, or his playing. I didn't idolize Jeff in the least bit. I only had a passion for trying to understand the bass & playing it & the Players School accepted students as they were, without any real previous real world qualifications or academia. I hastedly brought into the idea that a school would enable me to attain what i had in mind of how i heard the bass being played. Not fully realizing that what i desired to learn, was a by product of immersing myself in the enviorment/culture.

Trust me, if Nathan East, or a Andrew Gouche had a school i would've easily went that route over Berlin's anyday.