"Playing Along"

KingRazor · #1 09-06-2010, 01:44 PM

One of the main suggestions I've read for new players on here is to "play along to the radio" (or CD or MP3 I guess).

What I don't get is, unless you know what key the song is in, or at least know enough of the chords to figure out that key, and unless you're familiar with common chord progressions, how are you supposed to do that?

MalcolmAmos · #2 09-06-2010, 02:06 PM

That's one of the things you learn. Jamming with your CD's, radio, or live performers, you assume some things.

To find the key. Sound your G string one fret at a time. When what you are doing on the G string and what you are hearing from the CD come into sync (sound good together) you've found the tonal center, thus the key. Look down at your fretboard and what note did that happened on? That is your key. Use the G string the E string is too low to pick up the key from - at least my old ears need the G string.

Depending on the type of music you can assume the chord progression. Pop, Rock and Country you can assume a I IV V I progression will work. In jazz assume a ii V I progression. Both of those progressions will contain every note in the scale so sooner or later those three chords are going to harmonize that scale. Let me say that again - sooner or later those three chords will harmonize any melody that stays in scale. Here is where your ear comes in. You are using one of the three chords and it sounds like the melody has moved along and a new chord is needed. You've got a 50-50 chance - pick one. If that one sounds off the other one is going to work.

With Pop, Rock and Country assume the verse will start with the I chord, somewhere near the end of the first line the IV chord will come in and continue to near the end of the second line at which point the V7 chord will come in and the second line will then end with the I chord. The 3rd and 4th line will repeat what happened in the first and second line.

That will get you close. Normally close enough. If you do not play Pop, Rock or Country pull up some fake chord or lead sheet music and analyze what chord progression they use. I bet you will find a pattern. Assume that pattern for the song you are playing over.

Have fun.

dug dog · #3 09-06-2010, 02:13 PM

Another thing you can do is look up the song on one of the guitar tab sites like Ultimate Guitar and use the chords to give you the root notes to play on the bass.

delta7fred · #4 09-06-2010, 02:56 PM

It's not that easy for a beginner to play along to the radio, by the time you have found the key the song is almost over. But CDs or mp3s are ideal.

Forget about tabs because most of them are not 100% correct anyway. The easy chords are usually right but once it gets to the difficult bits they can get very creative. It is far better to learn to to do it yourself.

As MalcolmAmos says most pop, rock or country usually starts on the cord of the key it is in. Find the first chord (usually the key) then listen for the change and find that. If you haven't found it by the next change rewind and start again until you get it. For a start just play the root notes, don't bother with the fancy bits until you have the basics down. Write them down for the different parts - intro, verse, chorus, end, etc.

Unlike Malcolm I usually use the E string to find the key, always have, probably always will, been doing it since 1967 so too late to change now. Whatever you find easiest.

Once you have got the basic structure down then you can start working out the recognisable bits that make the song what it is.

The more you do it the easier it becomes. You will find there are a few set pattens. It all depends on your background how you describe them. Some use numbers, I use things like C Am F G then transpose it to the relevant key.

I never use open strings when learning a song, then when the singer says "can we drop that 3 frets" it is a simple matter to play in a different key. Some will probably disagree with this but it works for me.

KingRazor · #5 09-06-2010, 03:04 PM

A couple of problems in my case: A lot of what I play are church songs, which don't appear to use what people call "common" chord progressions (thankfully I have the chord charts for most of them, but without one I just get lost).

The other problem is most of the music I listen to has super quiet bass so I can only hear it when I crank my subwoofer. Also it can be difficult to follow what the guitars are doing because it's usually quite complicated.

MalcolmAmos · #6 09-06-2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingRazor

A couple of problems in my case: A lot of what I play are church songs, which don't appear to use what people call "common" chord progressions (thankfully I have the chord charts for most of them, but without one I just get lost).

The other problem is most of the music I listen to has super quiet bass so I can only hear it when I crank my subwoofer. Also it can be difficult to follow what the guitars are doing because it's usually quite complicated.

Understand. I'd just stick with the chord charts you have. You the drums and keyboard make up the rhythm section, i.e. your job is to work together, sound good, and don't step on each others toes. That kinda pulls it all into perspective..... you are there to make the solo instruments (vocalists) sound good. Most of the time - less is more.

One way I cheat - I also play rhythm guitar so I watch the rhythm guitar hands and change chords when he does. Now a lot of praise bands use the cut capo, and that is way different - I'd just have to follow the chard charts in that situation. I'm sure you know the key and a I-V-I chord vamp works until you can find your place.

Good luck.

ptrick63 · #7 09-06-2010, 03:32 PM

Even praise music has its typical progressions - you will find them repeating in many songs. Although they are not your standard rock or blues progressions, they do tend to get used widely. This is especially true of say a Chris Tomlin.

KingRazor · #8 09-06-2010, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Understand. I'd just stick with the chord charts you have. You the drums and keyboard make up the rhythm section, i.e. your job is to work together, sound good, and don't step on each others toes. That kinda pulls it all into perspective..... you are there to make the solo instruments (vocalists) sound good. Most of the time - less is more.

One way I cheat - I also play rhythm guitar so I watch the rhythm guitar hands and change chords when he does. Now a lot of praise bands use the cut capo, and that is way different - I'd just have to follow the chard charts in that situation. I'm sure you know the key and a I-V-I chord vamp works until you can find your place.

Good luck.

Knowing when to change chords is the easy part, knowing which ones to change to is the challenge.

Eminentbass · #9 09-07-2010, 01:25 AM

It's very much a play/pause situation at first. The trial and error will gradually decrease as you learn more songs and your ear will get better as learn to recognise common patterns in most pop/rock songs. One thing that helps me determine key is a guitar background. I'm often able to hear what inversion or chord shape is being played unless a capo is being used.

Jazz, even though it is more complex, has common changes that occur in many standards and it's not as random as it sounds at first. The guitar playing doesn't help here though because even if the music contains one, it's often not playing open chords and the the key is just a starting point for a tune that might modulate back and forth during the head.

Theory will help you hear and identify the numerical patterns, so that even if you're not aware of a key when just listening, you can hear and identify the chord relationships. That also helps a lot when it comes to transposing.

BassChuck · #10 09-07-2010, 04:45 AM

Another thing to do would be to record an hour or so of radio and then play it back using start/stop/pause etc. Before I practice I'll play Pandora into an mp3 recorder. After I'm done with scales etc..... time to listen to what I 'captured".

It does take time, but the joy of playing along with radio or Pandor is the randomness of the selection. It keeps you on your toes.

So Low Bass · #11 09-07-2010, 08:18 AM

Finding the key might be a problem for many, but often the tune is “in the crack”, not C or C#, but in between. Those tunes require retuning the bass. For a beginner: forget it.
Playing along with live performances-like the Crossroads DVDs- generally avoid this problem.

I always assign one tune a week to my students to learn by ear. I make sure that it isn’t an “in the crack” tune, and play it for them beforehand. I’ll often assign tunes with similar patterns for following weeks. Reading is great, but beginners have to also learn to play with their ears.

champbassist · #12 09-07-2010, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by So Low Bass

Finding the key might be a problem for many, but often the tune is “in the crack”, not C or C#, but in between. Those tunes require retuning the bass. For a beginner: forget it.

Barring a couple, I haven't encountered such a problem in learning any song.

onlyclave · #13 09-07-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dug dog

Another thing you can do is look up the song on one of the guitar tab sites like Ultimate Guitar and use the chords to give you the root notes to play on the bass.

This is terrible advice.

KingRazor · #14 09-07-2010, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by champbassist

Barring a couple, I haven't encountered such a problem in learning any song.

I haven't encountered this either. I'm playing electric bass here, not up-right...

Slax · #15 09-07-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by champbassist

Barring a couple, I haven't encountered such a problem in learning any song.

I've only really ever noticed, for me, with older recordings.

rickl289 · #16 09-07-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingRazor

One of the main suggestions I've read for new players on here is to "play along to the radio" (or CD or MP3 I guess).

I like doing this but find myself playing along to a music tv channel. While I don't listen to country music, the Grand Ole Opry concerts are fun to play along to (and sometimes the tv pans to the bass player) or the gospel channel. I have no idea of the song changes but still fun to listen and find the 'center'.

And, now that I'm in a band that does a lot of covers, I just get links to youtube videos and have to figure out the changes. I'm getting good at playing with a pencil in my hand.

I just did 4 songs last week with only youtube video links.

delta7fred · #17 09-07-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyclave

This is terrible advice.

+1000

If you never try to work the chords out then you will never learn. You will be relying on the 14 year old kids that do it (often badly) and post on the tab sites.

Also as the OP says not much of what he wants to learn is on tab sites.

delta7fred · #18 09-07-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickl289

I like doing this but find myself playing along to a music tv channel. While I don't listen to country music, the Grand Ole Opry concerts are fun to play along to (and sometimes the tv pans to the bass player) or the gospel channel. I have no idea of the song changes but still fun to listen and find the 'center'.

And, now that I'm in a band that does a lot of covers, I just get links to youtube videos and have to figure out the changes. I'm getting good at playing with a pencil in my hand.

I just did 4 songs last week with only youtube video links.

Now rickl289 has the right attitude. I does not matter what you are learning as long as you are enjoying it. Anything learned is useful as it is all good experience and you never know when parts of it will crop up in a song you do want to learn.

lunarpollen · #19 09-07-2010, 12:07 PM

I don't think the suggestion is meant to be taken 100% literally. It generally assumes that the listener will be familiar with the songs he/she would hear on the radio, but won't necessarily know what song would come one next, but would generally enjoy the tunes. In this day and age, it's not very likely that anyone will find a radio station that will consistently play tunes that any person will enjoy and be familiar with from a musical standpoint, it's all programmed by marketers for selling advertising, it's all about image and flash rather than being about the music. The modern day equivalent to playing along with the radio would be playing along with your mp3 player on shuffle. You will have a bigger playlist, the music will be stuff you know that you like, and it will be more fun and more productive. It will still be challenging, you won't play along perfectly with stuff, but the more you do it the better you will get.

Steve Dixon · #20 09-08-2010, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingRazor

One of the main suggestions I've read for new players on here is to "play along to the radio" (or CD or MP3 I guess).

What I don't get is, unless you know what key the song is in, or at least know enough of the chords to figure out that key, and unless you're familiar with common chord progressions, how are you supposed to do that?

you're supposed to do your best using your ear... even if your best is just working out what's the best root note to ride on for each bar...

and as your ear gets better over time, the better and quicker you'll get at picking out bass lines