Playing for four years....need some theory.

[Sky]

This is my first post,

I have been playing for 4 years...learning from CDs playing in indies bands...I like RHCP...Fugazi....Pearl Jam....U2....The National...Radiohead....Miles Davis.

I have basically been working out songs for practice...and now I wanna get into theory...I know basic scales etc...but I wanna lean to solo and understand theory....how can I begin???

[El-Bob]

you should probably get a good teacher

[PinkFloydDan]

Theory is hard. I just chalked it down to I Am someone who just cannot be taught. Oh well. At least I haven't found the magical teacher to help me understand theory.

[El Barbero]

Originally Posted by PinkFloydDan

Theory is hard. I just chalked it down to I Am someone who just cannot be taught. Oh well. At least I haven't found the magical teacher to help me understand theory.

Learning theory is like everthing else you ever learned.. it's the understanding that's difficult

[BassChuck]

Theory is only difficult if you have no application for it. Find a teacher who can show you how this information is useful for bass playing. When you can use it you will understand and remember it better.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by PinkFloydDan

Theory is hard. I just chalked it down to I Am someone who just cannot be taught. Oh well. At least I haven't found the magical teacher to help me understand theory.

Nothing makes sense till you use it. Theory is mainly putting labels on thing you probably are doing already. When you study theory take the topic you are learning and look for it in the tunes and lines you play already. When you see it used and can associated with a sound then it will make sense and stick. After you find it in your own play then try to make up some new line or progression or something using it.

When you learn by doing that is called tactile learning and many me included learn best when we can do something with what we learn.

[mutedeity]

Oh no, you want to learn theory, that could make you unpopular around here. Best to just "feel it and groove".

On the other hand you could look for a decent teacher. Search my posts if you want to see what my idea of a decent teacher will teach you. Not that it's a very popular point of veiw as you may see.

What theory do you want to learn?

Do you want to learn harmony? Rhythm theory? Do you want to know about the modes? Do you want to learn composition theory? Do you want to learn how to improvise over changes? Do you want to learn to read? What do you think would be useful for what you want to do?

[Asa Samuel]

Originally Posted by afromoose

What theory do you want to learn?

Do you want to learn harmony? Rhythm theory? Do you want to know about the modes? Do you want to learn composition theory? Do you want to learn how to improvise over changes? Do you want to learn to read? What do you think would be useful for what you want to do?

i think he wants to love what they all are first.

[Sky]

Man....I would love to be able to learn improvisation over changes...I think this could only serve to improve my playing....Its something I can feel I wanna do already in song I know but when I start I just make a mistake through lack of knowledge...know what I mean? Along side that learning harmony would be good too. I would love to know some books that could explain some of this well.

This might sound a bit funny, but what is your preferred learning style? - There is a theory widely used where they classify learners as primarily kinaesthetic, read-write, auditory, or visual. Do you usually learn by doing, feeling and being hands-on? That would make you kinaesthetic. If you normally prefer to read about a subject and for knowledge to go in and be accepted by your brain that would make you read-write. If you're visual, you might prefer to use diagrams and tables etc. If you're auditory, then asking people's opinions and listening to music would be the main way that you'd learn.

It's good when you're starting to learn the stuff if you apply whatever learning method to your preferred style - at least in the initial stages, because it will help to cement the boring nitty gritty. For me, I'm primarily kinaesthetic, which isn't so great for theory, but I'm also very auditory, (this is from the pseudo-sciency learning profile tests you can find), so I like to use auditory learning methods, such as vocalising patterns over and over. Diagrams and visual stuff goes in less easily for me, so I move to that later. For you it might be the other way round, but make sure you do it in a way that suits you to start.

Regardless of how you go about learning the theory, if you want to be able to use it practically, then practice is the only way. In other words - you can learn that over minor chords you could try playing the Dorian mode, but until you do this, you won't find out what it means to you. Actually that said, I think there are plenty of people that are happy to use the theory without having really criticized how it sounds - plenty of people who are like 'well technically i'm playing this over this, so technically this works', as they launch into another horrible insensitive crass sounding arpeggio. But having a look at the bands that you've mentioned, I don't think any of them have this approach - in fact, most of them are quite unaware of theory (for example flea, at least for most of his career, maybe he's learned some recently). Radiohead definitely know a lot of theory, but again they explore it critically and artistically before using it.

So, if you want to learn how to play over changes - have a look at any resource that will tell you a bit about the modes, what they are, how they're derived (it's actually probably simpler than you think) - importantly find out which modes are commonly used with which chords. Then find a backing track - I can recommend the Aebersold series of Jazz books they're great - the first one especially has a great variety of backing tracks in different keys. And then just play over them. If you're visual have the charts in front of you. If you're auditory then sing as you play along with what you're doing. If you're kinaesthetic then play things over and over without looking at the fretboard so that the habit just sinks into the muscles. If you're read/write then you could have some music in front of you and read it off to get some new ideas. To be honest, you could use any or all of these methods.

The other thing I'd say is that the 'boring' (well, for me, boring) part of learning the theory can be done away from your instrument. For example, you can learn to write out all five positions of the major scale by yourself without having your bass with you. When you come back to the bass that knowledge will still be in your head, but you won't have had to waste time with your instrument on a task that can be achieved elsewhere. When you're with the instrument you can concentrate on using that scale rather than looking up and down at charts and at your fretboard and probably giving yourself a sore neck.

Also, be careful about perceiving mistakes in your playing. Often the difference between a mistake and a 'correct' note is a matter of opinion. For example, in twentieth century harmony there are many more possibilities for what a 'correct' note can be, and often learning how to use these 'incorrect' notes is what leads to new and interesting ideas. (for the correcto-nerds out there, a good example is playing a fifth below the root, which is technically a fourth, but is used a lot in 20th century harmony. Sometimes you can play a ninth below the root (two fifths) and it will also sound good - it adds 'brilliance' to the high registers of the chord). Trust your own ear and if you find yourself playing a note that you think is a 'mistake' really explore it to find out why - it might be that you can turn it into a new idea, a new groove, or that you can resolve it to a better note and use it as a 'passing note'.

Okay I've written enough. Just remember to use the theory and don't let the theory use you. You're an artist first and foremost not a slave to technicalities. If you're into Jesus and think he's a cool dude, then something he said springs to mind - 'God created the sabbath for man, not man for the sabbath'. Replace 'sabbath' with 'theory' and 'God' with 'mutedeity' and you've got my slant on that one. Having said that, you might be a 'theorist' at heart, in which case go for it. (this is more educationalist psycho-babble). I am an 'activist', which more kinaesthetic learners are in general, so I prefer trial and error and direct experience. The 'theorists' will be happy as long as everything fits in the theory. You can also be a 'reflective' or a 'pragmatist'. Possibly baloney, but again, if you find out about this it might help with your learning.

[0175westwood29]

watever he said

One other thing -

I haven't said anything about rhythm. The bass is (as well as harmonic and melodic) a very RHYTHM instrument.

One of the reasons you might be getting 'wrong' notes isn't necessarily that you're playing the wrong notes, but that you've placed them at a point in a part of the bar or phrase where they don't work. Have a look at reggae for some really excellent examples of this, because a lot of Bob Marley grooves, for example, just don't work if you change even one note.

I'd say if you don't pay as much attention to rhythm theory as to harmonic or melodic theory, then it would be a shame. Most players now are let down by their lack of rhythmic awareness rather than not knowing the notes.

I've always found that studying the percussive instruments (like djembe or african bell rituals) and applying the clave patterns to bass is a really good thing. Once you get the rhythm pattern the actual notes pretty much dictate themselves.

Having a great sense of rhythm will also help with other aspects of your playing that are much more important than your arpeggio solos or whatever, such as your groove-awareness, tightness, ability to complement the music and control the energy of the band, and ability to generate truly original sounding music.

[hunta]

Originally Posted by PinkFloydDan

Theory is hard. I just chalked it down to I Am someone who just cannot be taught. Oh well. At least I haven't found the magical teacher to help me understand theory.

I'm pretty confident I could teach anyone theory (provided they wanted to learn it). Especially a bass player I was self-taught for many years, took lessons here and there and completely failed to learn theory from anyone. Eventually when I was in college, I was getting little bits of theory thrown at me from so many different teachers and classes, things started to stick.

In my opinion, the way theory is generally taught simply does not work for some people. Some peeps eat it up when taught the orthodox way, but I wasn't one of them. Once I started digesting the basics I could sit in those classical theory courses and actually get it.

In my opinion, you should learn theory starting with:
1) Learning note names and basic notation (or at least being exposed to it).
2) Major modes
3) Triads

The major modes are absolutely huge if you want to get into theory. For me, that was what really opened the floodgates. Once I understood the modes, I really wanted to learn as much theory as possible because I got that glimpse of what I could do with it. Particularly for bassists, the modes are very important because in most styles you have to come up with a bass line based on chords. The modes tell you what notes work with what chords.

The best thing is learning the major modes is EASY. It just has to be taught right. That means it needs to be taught in the right way for YOU. Most teachers only know how to teach things one way, and are not adaptive to student needs. They don't understand how mind numbingly difficult learning this stuff can be for some people, usually because they never had a hard time learning it.

I would even use that as a criteria for selecting a teacher. Ask them to teach you the major modes. If they can't do that to your satisfaction within a month or so, find a new one.

[MarkMcCombs]

except that Flea knows theory, he's trained very well. don't let appearances fool you, he knows his stuff, and long before he was in RHCP. At least that's what I got from Behind the Music.

Mark

Originally Posted by afromoose

T...But having a look at the bands that you've mentioned, I don't think any of them have this approach - in fact, most of them are quite unaware of theory (for example flea, at least for most of his career, maybe he's learned some recently).

I agree with hunta.

It would be good actually - to try and put something together that combines different people's explanations of how the modes work. Everybody will have a different approach, and I think that learners would benefit from having a resource that has many people's explanations of how the modes are formed.

I mean that's what it always comes down to with theory, really, isn't it - the modes. Usually it's the biggest single hurdle people face I reckon. Even the word 'Mode' is enough to scare a learner it seems such an odd word for a bunch of scales.

Maybe we could start a thread where people can just write how they learned the modes, or maybe learning methods that they found useful.

Hi Mark

Yeah good point and I agree about flea he's one of my favourite players and no doubt anybody who learns trumpet as a kid has to learn a lot of music theory. I was actually referring to what he said on his tuition video with River Phoenix in it - he refers to himself as having no idea about theory. I think it's probably more because he learned bass guitar just by picking it up and playing it, and his ear probably allows him to do lots of stuff which technically he hasn't figured out how he's doing it.

I'm similar in that I learned classical piano as a child so all my music theory was learned on that instrument, and when i later picked up stringed instruments I played a lot of stuff by ear and just doing improv without actually knowing what intervals or scales I was actually playing.

Theory is always good though - it never hurts to have more tools at your disposal.

The point I was trying to get across was only to say that there's not necessarily a need to worry about whether what you're doing is 'technically correct' because often we haven't learned the theory yet to inform us of what we're doing and why it sounds good. It was more about not being scared by 'theoretical correctness'.

[Michael Case]

Start learning how to play modes, triads, and 7th chords on your bass. Then, pick up a copy of "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine. That book starts with basic theory and dives into improvising over changes. Personally I believe that learning modes and everything else on the bass first is important. Also a keyboard is very useful, learn how to voice chords in one hand, then try to play modes, triads, 7th chords, licks with the chord to get a sense of what it sounds like.

[Erick Lam]

Get a good book on harmony. That's where the meat is. It gives an understanding of music instead of simply learning things by heart. I can't recommend one as mine are in French.

I like Persichetti's "Twentieth Century Harmony". It might be a bit advanced for beginners though.