Playing in Key, and Jamming in General! .. And other questions :)

[RimsyOsiris]

Hi everyone!!

I cant get enough of my bass guitar... I just cannot put it down haha.. BUT! I have been learning alot more theory lately, and still cannot seem to apply it. I have never jammed, and just jammed.. That is to say, when i DO jam, its to play our favorite tunes.. Which includes LOTS of Iron Maiden.. (Steve Harris is the man!!) I actually just ordered and recieved his P Bass... and its more beautiful than I imagined.. Sorry got a bit off topic..

ANYWAY... My questions are.. Jamming in Key is basically jamming the scale which the guitarists are Keying in? So if a guitar player is rocking a riff in G, I have a wide range of options do I not? I could play, G Major scale, or Lydian, Mixo,... Or should I stick with the Major Scale?.. Im new to theory, but its my understanding the modes are based off of the Major Scale, so they should fit in? .. I want to JAM with a guitarist who will help me learn to Jam..

Playing some amazing songs, written by VERY talented musicians is fun, and mind blowing.. But I want my shot to write the music, and my shot to impress people.. I need to start somewhere, and jamming seems the logical starting point lol.. But what are the basics to a jam that doesnt include covering someone elses work??

Also! Where does the Circle of Fifths come in? I memorized it, and I have a very small understanding of it. I can now reciet each of the flat and sharps in each of the scales.. Is there more to it? Or is it a basic music knowledge lesson that every musician should pick up on?

I hope you guys can give me a hand on this.. I really wanna take my bass playing up a notch.

Many thanks to you all.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by RimsyOsiris

...My questions are.. Jamming in Key is basically jamming the scale which the guitarists are Keying in? So if a guitar player is rocking a riff in G, I have a wide range of options do I not? I could play, G Major scale, or Lydian, Mixo,... Or should I stick with the Major Scale?.. Im new to theory, but its my understanding the modes are based off of the Major Scale, so they should fit in? .. I want to JAM with a guitarist who will help me learn to Jam..

Playing some amazing songs, written by VERY talented musicians is fun, and mind blowing.. But I want my shot to write the music, and my shot to impress people.. I need to start somewhere, and jamming seems the logical starting point lol.. But what are the basics to a jam that doesnt include covering someone elses work??

OK lets take this part. Yes you can use scales and modes, however, the other instruments will be doing that. Your job is to provide the bottom end. The chords. Your job is to take the chord tones work them into a groove and lead the rest of the band members into the next chord. You can do that best if you play chord tones. Leave the scales and modes for when you get to do a lead break. IMHO chord tones are what the other members of the band are counting on you to provide. Now when they give you the lead break solo, then help your self to all the melodic scales and modes you like.

Now jamming is knowing - or assuming - what chords are being used in the song and then composing the bass lines that you feel will best serve that song. As I really do not know what all you know - ask specific questions and someone will go into detail.

Also! Where does the Circle of Fifths come in? I memorized it, and I have a very small understanding of it. I can now reciet each of the flat and sharps in each of the scales.. Is there more to it? Or is it a basic music knowledge lesson that every musician should pick up on? I hope you guys can give me a hand on this.. I really wanna take my bass playing up a notch. Many thanks to you all.

The circle of fifths is a "cheat sheet" reference source if you prefer those words - that tell you all kind of neat things you can do. Yes it does tell you the number of sharps and flats that are in each scale, what the relative minor of this major scale is. Which chord likes to move to what other chord, etc.

I'd point you to some study on how melody lines and chord lines harmonize each other. How to develop (compose) the bass lines you will use over those chord tones I pointed you to.

Can you hear a song and know what key it's in? If you want to jamm that's kinda important. Turn on your CD's and jamm along. See what you can do. Then come back here with specific questions. You mentioned your theory journey is just starting. Jamming will require that you spend some time with your theory. All kind of books out there. Post # 2 on the following string may be helpful. It starts with how to construct a major scale and then five steps later takes on how to write a melody. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11975

Good luck.

[Russell L]

Sheez, your question is too broad. First off, learn theory from the beginning, starting with intervals, then chord structure, then progressions. Modes are just 7-note scales, based on altering the major scale. It's all about where the half-steps occur in the scale. For instance, you can turn the major scale into the Dorian Mode simply by changing the half-steps from between 3 and 4, and between 7 and 8 (as they are in the major scale), to being between 2 and 3, and between 6 and 7 (as they are in the Dorian Mode). The Dorian Mode sounds minor, in that the i-chord is minor. That's just an example.

For jamming. Well, listen (or ask) if what is being played uses dominant 7 chords or not. For instance, if you are playing blues (and most rock) on a G-chord, you will not use the G major scale because that kind of music mostly uses a lowered 7 in the harmony. (That is, you would not play the note F#, but would play the note F instead). Your ear should help you identify that concept. Sometimes music uses no 7s at all, but rather major 6. Bluegrass and a lot of country and country/rock, as well as much Southern rock can be like that, so that you would be mostly playing a pentatonic major scale, using 1356 a lot, but also adding a 2 often.

If what I have just said doesn't make much sense, then go back to basic theory and try to build up from the beginning in knowledge. I know it's confusing, but once you get it, it seems simple. Lots of weird terms, unfortunately.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Sheez, your question is too broad. First off, learn theory from the beginning, starting with intervals, then chord structure, then progressions. Modes are just 7-note scales, based on altering the major scale. It's all about where the half-steps occur in the scale. For instance, you can turn the major scale into the Dorian Mode simply by changing the half-steps from between 3 and 4, and between 7 and 8 (as they are in the major scale), to being between 2 and 3, and between 6 and 7 (as they are in the Dorian Mode). The Dorian Mode sounds minor, in that the i-chord is minor. That's just an example.

For jamming. Well, listen (or ask) if what is being played uses dominant 7 chords or not. For instance, if you are playing blues (and most rock) on a G-chord, you will not use the G major scale because that kind of music mostly uses a lowered 7 in the harmony. (That is, you would not play the note F#, but would play the note F instead). Your ear should help you identify that concept. Sometimes music uses no 7s at all, but rather major 6. Bluegrass and a lot of country and country/rock, as well as much Southern rock can be like that, so that you would be mostly playing a pentatonic major scale, using 1356 a lot, but also adding a 2 often.

If what I have just said doesn't make much sense, then go back to basic theory and try to build up from the beginning in knowledge. I know it's confusing, but once you get it, it seems simple. Lots of weird terms, unfortunately.

What he said.

What I used to students (when I was teaching, years ago) was that you, as a player, should have "Practice time" and "Fun time" on bass. "Practice time" is when you bust out the metronome, work though the sight-reading exercises I provided, practiced your scales & modes - stuff like that. "Fun time" is jamming to your favorite tunes. They both have value, but playing along with Iron Maiden (or any other pop rock) by itself is *not* going to teach you how to play bass. This was thing single biggest hassle I had a teacher -convincing kids that not everything about playing bass is pure *fun* - sometimes, is WORK. Period.

[blakelock]

Originally Posted by RimsyOsiris

ANYWAY... My questions are.. Jamming in Key is basically jamming the scale which the guitarists are Keying in? So if a guitar player is rocking a riff in G, I have a wide range of options do I not? I could play, G Major scale, or Lydian, Mixo,... Or should I stick with the Major Scale?.. Im new to theory, but its my understanding the modes are based off of the Major Scale, so they should fit in? .. I want to JAM with a guitarist who will help me learn to Jam..

i'll throw something out there ...your guitarist might be jamming in G, but he's probably still shifting from 1 chord to another. these chords might all be in the key of G but they are different chords. so, when he's playing a G chord, there are certain notes within the G scale that fit best. when he shifts to a C chord, there are different notes (still in the key of G) that carry that C chord. these are called chord tones. it's a good starting point to hover around these chord tones.

you'll also want to know if he's jamming in G major or G minor or any one of those other modes of G. once you figure that out, you can pretty much just stick with that scale but try to follow (or create!) a chord progression within that scale.

by the way, finding a jamming partner to learn from is one of the best things you can do.

good luck!

[johnboy65]

Originally Posted by RimsyOsiris

Hi everyone!!
ANYWAY... My questions are.. Jamming in Key is basically jamming the scale which the guitarists are Keying in? So if a guitar player is rocking a riff in G, I have a wide range of options do I not? I could play, G Major scale, or Lydian, Mixo,... Or should I stick with the Major Scale?.. Im new to theory, but its my understanding the modes are based off of the Major Scale, so they should fit in? .. I want to JAM with a guitarist who will help me learn to Jam..

Quote from a friend of mine "If the question is 'do you want to get together and jam?' the answer is 'no'"... sorry that just makes me laugh.

As far as playing in key... that's difficult for me to explain because there are a ton of answers but (for me) it starts with this: modally what are they doing? Playing a Gmaj run if they are somewhere else is going to be a nightmare.
There are several choices that, as a rule, tend to work for me 3/1, 2 or 3 passing to the 4, root/5, I play 6-octave-7 passing to the 4 a lot. Of course it all depends on the song.
If you don't get the #'s here goes in G:
1=G 2=A 3=B 4=C 5=D 6=E 7=F#

The real thing for me when I was playing and thinking that much about modes and scales is that if you stay within the same mode/scale and just do the runs it tends to not be very musical. So the secret (to me at least) is to know "hey I'm here and my knowledge of theory has prepared me to know that I have these notes available" not "well this is a minor and I know all the notes in order of the Aeolian mode"

Good luck and keep it musical!

[Russell L]

Best way to study theory is to look at a piano keyboard. Here's a way to know what all the different modes sound like (I'll show how they're constructed, too, in case you wanna make 'em in a different key. The second column shows how they vary from the major scale. I hope this prints out in columns. The numbers at the far right tell between what steps the half-steps are). On the white keys only:

C-C = Ionian Mode (the Major Scale) 3-4. 7-8
D-D = Dorian Mode b3, b7 2-3, 6-7
E-E = Phrygian Mode b2, b3, b6, b7 1-2, 6-7
F-F = Lydian Mode #4 4-5, 7-8
G-G = Myxolydian Mode b7 3-4, 6-7
A-A = Aeolian Mode (Natural Minor Scale)b3, b6, b7 2-3, 5-6
B-B = Locrian Mode b2, b3, b5, b7 1-2, 4-5

Whew.

EDIT: Dang, the columns didn't work. Oh well.

[RimsyOsiris]

Thank you.. Everyone

I played bass and quit when i was 18, frustrated that i wasnt improving.. now I am 23, and hating that i never got into the theory sooner.. There is so much to learn, and its all very much like climbing a ladder.. If you miss a rung, you cant keep climbing. Im missing a few..

A run down of my musical knowledge:

I know the contruction of the Modes, and Scales, I understand when a guitar player plays a Chord i have more options than the root note. I know which notes belong to which major scale after only a second of thinking and relating it to the Circle of Fifths in my head. I can pick up on the basics of the Bass Clef. This is coming only from WEEKS of studying... and this is ONLY from 1 source, and its a Bass Scale Construction book I picked up...I just stumbled across studybass.com and it seems like an amazing place to start.. The good news is, i didnt get too into the wrong steps in the wrong order.. I can still start over and not get lost..

I cannot hear a song and pick out which key it's in, how do I train my ear, or can I?... I can barely, if ever, pick up on wether a song is major or minor.. But then again, I have never really tried. The last 3 weeks are the first weeks I have ever taken this to more than Jamming Cover Tunes.. I feel like im starting all over, when really I havent even truly begun yet.

Music is one of the hardest things i have ever studied.. and this is coming from WEEKS only haha. So many things happening at once.. I really want my mind to link and mesh with this. I want to be able to jam comfortably with ANYONE.. I want to get thrown into a mesh of people and just know where they are, and what my job is within that group. I want to create music with a group of people, and have it all flow effortlessly, but not thoughtlessly..

Im going to think hard about what i actually want to get from this, and have more thorough questions for you all soon.. I want. and i hope i can one day come back and show someone a few things

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by RimsyOsiris

now I am 23, and hating that i never got into the theory sooner..

What would be helpful for you is to take the negative emotion out of whatever you are doing. You won't be perfect. No one ever is. Learning music is a non-linear process with many peaks and valleys.

The last 3 weeks are the first weeks I have ever taken this to more than Jamming Cover Tunes.. I feel like im starting all over, when really I havent even truly begun yet.

Music is one of the hardest things i have ever studied.. and this is coming from WEEKS only haha.

I suggest you stop counting hours, days, weeks, etc. If you practice, it will come. Putting pressure on yourself is a negative emotion. Learning music is not a race. It's a path to self-expression.

It's a life long journey. Enjoy the journey.

I want. and i hope i can one day come back and show someone a few things

Try not to make that your primary motivation. Learn it because it makes you happy. If doesn't make you happy, possibly find another hobby that does.

Good luck.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by RimsyOsiris

Hi everyone!!

I cant get enough of my bass guitar... I just cannot put it down haha.. BUT! I have been learning alot more theory lately, and still cannot seem to apply it. I have never jammed, and just jammed.. That is to say, when i DO jam, its to play our favorite tunes.. Which includes LOTS of Iron Maiden.. (Steve Harris is the man!!) I actually just ordered and recieved his P Bass... and its more beautiful than I imagined.. Sorry got a bit off topic..

ANYWAY... My questions are.. Jamming in Key is basically jamming the scale which the guitarists are Keying in? So if a guitar player is rocking a riff in G, I have a wide range of options do I not? I could play, G Major scale, or Lydian, Mixo,... Or should I stick with the Major Scale?.. Im new to theory, but its my understanding the modes are based off of the Major Scale, so they should fit in? .. I want to JAM with a guitarist who will help me learn to Jam..

try it all. take a note of what sounds good to you, and try to do that. however, don't get too caught up in applying theory to what you do when playing songs. obviously you need some guidelines here and there, but the idea is to play what you think will feel and sound good. that could be a wide range of things. experiment around...don't be afraid to play bad stuff in order to find the good.

Playing some amazing songs, written by VERY talented musicians is fun, and mind blowing.. But I want my shot to write the music, and my shot to impress people.. I need to start somewhere, and jamming seems the logical starting point lol.. But what are the basics to a jam that doesnt include covering someone elses work??

got a few dozen years for me to explain it fully?

being flexible, being able to come up with lines that work to support the music, knowing when to play a lot and when to play a little, being creative...each situation will vary, and there are no hard and fast rules except do your best and try to make it sound like music you'd want to buy.

Also! Where does the Circle of Fifths come in? I memorized it, and I have a very small understanding of it. I can now reciet each of the flat and sharps in each of the scales.. Is there more to it? Or is it a basic music knowledge lesson that every musician should pick up on?

that's pretty much it. it's a memory device to figure out what sharps and flats are in a key and not much else.

sounds to me you could use getting all this theory organized so it doesn't overwhelm you. if you can get a teacher who's into jazz concepts, it would really help you make sense of it all.

[Luff]

If you are jamming in a key, chances are the others are playing something specific - like pentatonic licks over some minor key related chords. Understand what they are doing and listen. Then you can get into the music you are making. Modes and exotic scales aren't that common when people are jamming. They mainly come in handy when a soloist who enjoys playing over open vamps/riffs also happens to enjoy playing those things. Like if I were soloing over a riff with only the notes E and D in the key of E, I would most likely feel the urge to stretch out into some mixolydian, phrygian dominant, dorian and a bunch of other things I enjoy the sound of, being free to chose a bunch of different notes. Most likely you are not supporting something like that when you are jamming, so you don't need to worry about hearing all of those things yet. You may not be interested in that stuff at all, in which case, don't bother learning it.

So just spend some time understanding what is going on in the music you are making when you jam. It's probably not something you want to go all modal on. Just make sure it sounds good, and you'll have it down pretty quick.

[dougjwray]

Some good advice here.

I'll just add that I think of playing music as like participating in a spoken conversation. You listen and contribute pertinent responses, or offer new ideas. When someone else is talking, you respect that.

It really doesn't take long to hear what notes sound jarring and which sound good, in a given context. What does take time, for a bass player, is judging when to be 100% supportive and when to let go a bit. In most music created for sale, the bassist is responsible for holding everything together (like it or not); in jams, you have more of an opportunity to risk letting everything fall apart, and that's an essential stage in the learning process. By listening and "coming out and back", you develop your musicality. People will want to play with you if you give yourself lots of experience with this stuff.

Hope that was all clear.
Good luck and have fun!

[Floridabwoy]

Ravenspiral guide to music theory
http://ravenspiral.com/rsg2mt/rsg2mt.pdf

[Russell L]

By all means, you can let your ear tell you what notes fit in and which ones don't. Pay attention, though, to train your ear to hear what the root of a chord sounds like, as opposed to other chord tones. It's ok to invert a chord at times, but playing the root will happen more often, and it will happen at times that stand out more, like on the first beat of a chord change. However, also learn to hear inversions, especially first inversion (playing the third of a chord instead of the root). You'd be surprised what a different feel it gives the song just for the short time you use it. Other folks will notice it, too, and will no doubt give you a smile for the creative feel.

[dougjwray]

Originally Posted by Russell L

By all means, you can let your ear tell you what notes fit in and which ones don't. Pay attention, though, to train your ear to hear what the root of a chord sounds like, as opposed to other chord tones. It's ok to invert a chord at times, but playing the root will happen more often, and it will happen at times that stand out more, like on the first beat of a chord change. However, also learn to hear inversions, especially first inversion (playing the third of a chord instead of the root). You'd be surprised what a different feel it gives the song just for the short time you use it. Other folks will notice it, too, and will no doubt give you a smile for the creative feel.

Yes, great point. It's an awesome responsibility... use it wisely.
One quick thing to avoid (or at least consider): when you play the third of a minor chord, it can make it sound like a major chord.
Example: A minor (A-C-E). When the bass strongly plays C on the bottom, it sounds like a C major 6 chord (C-E-A).

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by dougjwray

Yes, great point. It's an awesome responsibility... use it wisely.
One quick thing to avoid (or at least consider): when you play the third of a minor chord, it can make it sound like a major chord.
Example: A minor (A-C-E). When the bass strongly plays C on the bottom, it sounds like a C major 6 chord (C-E-A).

That's the truth, especially if the minor chord has a dominant 7 in it. Thus, a Cm7 in first inversion is Eb G Bb C, which accentuates the 6-chord sound because you then have what sounds like a 5th beside it. Good point, Doug.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by RimsyOsiris

Hi everyone!!

I cant get enough of my bass guitar... I just cannot put it down haha.. BUT! I have been learning alot more theory lately, and still cannot seem to apply it. I have never jammed, and just jammed.. That is to say, when i DO jam, its to play our favorite tunes.. Which includes LOTS of Iron Maiden.. (Steve Harris is the man!!) I actually just ordered and recieved his P Bass... and its more beautiful than I imagined.. Sorry got a bit off topic..

ANYWAY... My questions are.. Jamming in Key is basically jamming the scale which the guitarists are Keying in? So if a guitar player is rocking a riff in G, I have a wide range of options do I not? I could play, G Major scale, or Lydian, Mixo,... Or should I stick with the Major Scale?.. Im new to theory, but its my understanding the modes are based off of the Major Scale, so they should fit in? .. I want to JAM with a guitarist who will help me learn to Jam..

Playing some amazing songs, written by VERY talented musicians is fun, and mind blowing.. But I want my shot to write the music, and my shot to impress people.. I need to start somewhere, and jamming seems the logical starting point lol.. But what are the basics to a jam that doesnt include covering someone elses work??

Also! Where does the Circle of Fifths come in? I memorized it, and I have a very small understanding of it. I can now reciet each of the flat and sharps in each of the scales.. Is there more to it? Or is it a basic music knowledge lesson that every musician should pick up on?

I hope you guys can give me a hand on this.. I really wanna take my bass playing up a notch.

Many thanks to you all.

Music theory in a vacuum is useless. You need to know how to apply it. Since none of us can teach you in person, you need to take things into your own hands and transcribe and learn bass lines played by great players in the genre you're playing most. That will allow you to analyze these bass lines and figure out what's happening melodically and harmonically.

That said, playing scales in a jam will sound pretty bad. You play scales when you practice to gain knowledge of your instrument and about harmony, as well as technical dexterity. Bass lines are a totally different thing. You need to study theory AND study bass lines and figure out where the two meet. No amount of bla bla bla-ing on an internet forum will suddenly make you a better player. You need to do a lot of hard work and study and put these two things together.

Start with all your diatonic triads in every key in every inversion, simultaneously working on all your major scales in every key in every of the 9 combinations of tetrachords. Then you can start with diatonic 7th chords, 2-octave major scales and modes. It just goes up from there. All the while, be learning lots of real-life music.