"Playing in the Pocket article"

[Gaetano Paul]

So I have tried to clearly explain playing in the pocket, please let me know what you think and maybe some critique on how better to explain, as I am sure I could use the help LOL. Remember thing elementary, as if the people we are explaining to are not pros, but absolute beginners to intermediate.

[mambo4]

Kudos for trying to define one of bass playing's more slippery terms. At least you acknowledge it as "mystical"

You write

"The pocket is the place of consistency of the kick drum, actually playing the same rhythm, and the bass player linking up and playing to that very same rhythm. Whether it be 2 eighth notes on the 1st and third beats, or something extremely complex, this is “The Pocket”. "

So, you define the pocket as a single, identical rhythm that the bass and kick drum double each other on? I think many here would dispute that, because it leaves out the idea of complementary rhythms...Most would acknowledge James Jamerson as a a quintessential "pocket player" but He rarely mimicked exactly the kick drum...
----
My personal take, which I spout here constantly, is that "pocket", like "groove" and "feel" are poor choices to teach as concrete , discrete concepts. They are essentially non-musical synonyms for "playing well." Yet the degree to which we insist that "groove", "feel" and "pocket playing" are concepts of supreme importance can be very frustrating to a beginners trying to grasp this.

The reality is that such concepts are the result of a solid grasp of tempo, rhythmic subdivisions, dynamics, basic scale/chord knowledge, critical listening, ...etc.

in other words, "pocket playing" is a sum of various fundamentals that are easier and more helpful to communicate (IMHO).
I think you could improve the teaching aspect of the post by trying to address the underlying fundamentals that go into "pocket playing."

[Exploiter8]

Here we go...AGAIN!

[Gaetano Paul]

Originally Posted by Exploiter8

Here we go...AGAIN!

Thanks for the feedback guys

[JimmyM]

Ya, beginners get bombarded with enough nebulous terms that I don't think there's anything to be gained by teaching them "pocket playing" when all it means is "keeping good time and playing a part that sounds good for the song." And I'm really against teaching bass players to always line up their parts with the bass drum. That's what you do with really crappy bass players because they can't be trusted to do anything else. Jamerson, as mentioned before, is a perfect example. Rare is the time he follows the bass drum. Most of the time he's riding roughshod all over the bass drum, and often completely ignoring it. But he's always in the poc...er...keping good time and playing a part that sounds good for the song.

Honestly, that bass/drums dynamic works a lot better when the bass takes the lead role. The bass takes its cues from the main rhythmic instrument, usually guitar or keys, and if anyone's going to do the bulk of the following, it should be the drummer. Sometimes it sounds cool to hear something the drummer does and do something that goes along with it, but I think it makes for better sounding music when the drummer comes around to the rest of the band than the rest of the band coming around to the drummer. But you've pretty much told your potential students that the only way for them to play bass is to follow the bass drum and only do what it does. If I ever had a school advertise that's what they were going to teach me, that would turn me right off.

Sorry Gaetano, but you asked.

[Gaetano Paul]

Yes Jimmy, I did ask, thanks man, I disagree on some points with you, but totally value your opinion.

[JimmyM]

Thanks, Gaetano...but I'd like to know what parts you disagree with. Maybe I can explain it better, or maybe you'll have a point I never thought of.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

...I don't think there's anything to be gained by teaching them "pocket playing" when all it means is "keeping good time and playing a part that sounds good for the song."

That's quite a good definition (unsurprisingly).

My own would simply be to make or keep things tight. I use the word "make" to indicate being right on top of the beat, typically with the drummer, and I use the word "make" to indicate that anything a bass player does to lend cohesiveness to a piece of music is creating, and therefore being, in the pocket.

Sometimes holding a piece together is like trying to herd feral cats with a limp lasagna noodle. But if you can do it, you're decidedly in the pocket.

[5StringFool]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Honestly, that bass/drums dynamic works a lot better when the bass takes the lead role. The bass takes its cues from the main rhythmic instrument, usually guitar or keys, and if anyone's going to do the bulk of the following, it should be the drummer.

I agree with you 100% Jimmy. When I first started playing I went to the StudyBass website and the guy there really brings home how the bass is the rhythmic and harmonic foundation of a song, and that the drums should follow the bass.

However I've only come across one drummer who really adhered to this concept.

He was a guy who had done a fair amount of session work in L.A. and Nashville who had somehow ended up playing in our church. We'd be rehearsing and he'd have me play him the bass line for the song and then he'd build the drums around that. The songs were always really tight because of this and staying "in the pocket" seemed almost effortless.

What amazes me is that the vast majority of drummers I have encountered don't seem to get this. They usually have the attitude of, "I set the tempo, I"m the backbone, and everyone follows me". I currently play with a guy who overplays the kick in a bad way so I've ended up having to either trash some really cool bass parts, or "run roughshod", as you put it, over the bass drum and just kind of play off the one and three of the kick.

[JimmyM]

I hear ya. A lot of self taught drummers are like that. They hear drummers counting off songs on records, and they misinterpret that to mean they're the center of the universe. And then some giant ego comes along and says something like that in Modern Drummer, and next thing you know, it's drummer law...much like "follow the bass drum" is bassist law because some dopey self taught rock star who can't play that well says it.

Jeff Berlin's right...people sure screw up a lot of stuff about music by not studying only the music

[johndough247]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

That's quite a good definition (unsurprisingly).

My own would simply be to make or keep things tight. I use the word "make" to indicate being right on top of the beat, typically with the drummer, and I use the word "make" to indicate that anything a bass player does to lend cohesiveness to a piece of music is creating, and therefore being, in the pocket.

Sometimes holding a piece together is like trying to herd feral cats with a limp lasagna noodle. But if you can do it, you're decidedly in the pocket.

Don't necessarily agree with the "on top the beat part", in some styles the "pocket" lies slighty behind or ahead of the beat. Example: YouTube - ‪Bob Marley & the Wailers - The Heathen (live)‬‏

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by johndough247

Don't necessarily agree with the "on top the beat part", in some styles the "pocket" lies slighty behind or ahead of the beat. Example: YouTube - ‪Bob Marley & the Wailers - The Heathen (live)‬‏

Clearly, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I would characterize myself as a behind the beat bassist for the most part. One could ask, "if the rhythm section is behind the beat, isn't that where the beat is?"

I wouldn't, but one could.

[Gaetano Paul]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Thanks, Gaetano...but I'd like to know what parts you disagree with. Maybe I can explain it better, or maybe you'll have a point I never thought of.

Wow boy guess i missed it huh

[Gaetano Paul]

Or better yet apparently my understanding is wrong. My bass teacher never did teach me anything about it LOL
Somehow I dont think "keeping good time and playing a part that sounds good for the song." makes a good article It s got to be cooler than that, no...................
Wouldn't this just make playing in the pocket "playing an appropriate bass line for the song"? Why even bother with the term then?

[Exploiter8]

Perhaps we should bury the "In the pocket" phrase?

It seems to be the equivalent of explaining the color blue to someone who's been blind since birth.

X8

[c-ba55]

I understand this phrase similarly to what Jimmy said. But I always wondered if maybe it started out as keeping the space between the drums and the bass as a pocket in time, since the bass plays ahead of the drums in jazz & funk (where I think the phrase came from).

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Kudos for trying to define one of bass playing's more slippery terms. At least you acknowledge it as "mystical"

You write

So, you define the pocket as a single, identical rhythm that the bass and kick drum double each other on? I think many here would dispute that, because it leaves out the idea of complementary rhythms...Most would acknowledge James Jamerson as a a quintessential "pocket player" but He rarely mimicked exactly the kick drum...
----
My personal take, which I spout here constantly, is that "pocket", like "groove" and "feel" are poor choices to teach as concrete , discrete concepts. They are essentially non-musical synonyms for "playing well." Yet the degree to which we insist that "groove", "feel" and "pocket playing" are concepts of supreme importance can be very frustrating to a beginners trying to grasp this.

The reality is that such concepts are the result of a solid grasp of tempo, rhythmic subdivisions, dynamics, basic scale/chord knowledge, critical listening, ...etc.

in other words, "pocket playing" is a sum of various fundamentals that are easier and more helpful to communicate (IMHO).
I think you could improve the teaching aspect of the post by trying to address the underlying fundamentals that go into "pocket playing."

Excellent post, several good points in here. Mambo, I hope you don't mind me adding the emphasis.

In the blog post limked in the OP, it mentions a young drummer who apparently has been "working on his pocket". I wonder if we could get an idea of how he's been doing this?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Gaetano Paul

Or better yet apparently my understanding is wrong. My bass teacher never did teach me anything about it LOL
Somehow I dont think "keeping good time and playing a part that sounds good for the song." makes a good article It s got to be cooler than that, no...................
Wouldn't this just make playing in the pocket "playing an appropriate bass line for the song"? Why even bother with the term then?

LOL...that's my feeling I never even heard the term "in the pocket" until at least this century. Buzzwords like "groove" and "pocket" do sound cool when you see them in a magazine or blog, yes, but they don't apply to every situation. There are situations where doing the exact opposite of grooving or being in the pocket are appropriate.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter...you're free to accept or reject it, though

[Gaetano Paul]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Excellent post, several good points in here. Mambo, I hope you don't mind me adding the emphasis.

In the blog post limked in the OP, it mentions a young drummer who apparently has been "working on his pocket". I wonder if we could get an idea of how he's been doing this?

Hey Bassbill, what i meant is the young drummer had no consistent kick drum rhythm or groove, he had no area, completely sporadic and what not. Perhaps "pocket" is the total wrong term

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Gaetano Paul

Hey Bassbill, what i meant is the young drummer had no consistent kick drum rhythm or groove, he had no area, completely sporadic and what not. Perhaps "pocket" is the total wrong term

"Wrong" may be a bit strong, but it sounds like he has greater issues than just not having a pocket.