Playing in the Reggae style

[ryco]

I was playing with a guitar buddy who's writing a song in the reggae style.

He said something interesting. He told the drummer to place the backbeat on the three.
I asked him what he meant and he counted it out in such a way that the backbeat did seem like it was on three.
It seemed like he was counting double time:

1...2...3...4...1...2...3...4... (dots in between don't count for anything)

But I've always felt it as the bass and drums playing a slow half time swing feel:

1....&...2...&...3...&...4...&..

So what he's counting as 2 and 4 I'm counting as offbeats (&s or 8th notes). So of course combine the two and you get:

1...2...3...4...1...2...3...4...
1...&...2...&...3...&...4...&...

We are just feeling the same thing in a different way.
I don't play much reggae and certainly am not an authority.

Hope this makes sense!
I was wondering if anyone else has across this or has any thoughts?

[MarkTAW]

I made the same mistake when I first started I counted 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (they're called eighth notes - there should be 8 of them) instead of 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & so I'd say to the drummer "You know when you play your kick on seven? could you hit it on six instead? I'd rather us both hit at the same time than for you to sometimes emphasize six and sometimes emphasize seven."

Very embarrassing.

[JimK]

Makes sense...without hearing the tune, I would say-
SOMETIMES, when you think you're hearing the snare on "3"...the drummer may be playing in 1/2 time against your 'straight time'.
Your example:
1...2...3...4...1...2...3...4... 'straight time' (2 bars)
1...&...2...&...3...&...4...&... 1/2 time (seems like 1 bar)

What's cool is playing with a drummer that can play parts of the kit in 1/2 time vs. other parts of the kit in 'time'...

...and you can play 1/2 time grooves against 'the time', too.
Whenever I feel as though everything I'm doing is too busy...I'll start trying 1/2 time grooves.

[Mazatleco17]

I believe that's the "one drop rhythm" style, it was made popular by Carlton Barret (drummer for the wailers)

this rhythm is characterized by the dominant snare drum stroke and bass drum kick both sounding on the third beat of every measure in 4/4 time, while beat one is left empty. The style is unique and solid, with a clean sound, leaving relatively large open musical space for improvisation. (from wikipedia)

[COOL AND DEADLY]

There are many reggae drum beats, and some subjectivity as to which ones fall into categories like "One drop, two drop, steppers, etc." I think what you are descibing is the difference between straight 8 ( one and two and three and four ) and triplet feel ( one and A two and a three and a four.) Both are reggae with different feels. The straight 8 is used for slow-moderate-to fast, triplet for slow to moderate.

[fear_n_greed]

Stewart Copeland explains it here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q45sg06K4yI
at about the 2:15 mark in the vid.

[JimK]

...he sez he "has no idea how" they (Reggae-meisters) came up with the bass drum & snare on "3".
I say it's polyrhythms or bi-metrics, blah.

Copeland mentions 'backbeat' playing...Beatles, Stones, Motown, R&B, etc (snare on "2" & "4"...kick is on "1" & "3").
Reggae...they're dropping the kick off the "1"; kick is still played on "3".
The snare rhythm is counted in 1/2 time vs. the kick drum's time.
As a result, both appear to land on "3".

1...2...3...4...1...2...3...4... Kick
1...&...2...&...3...&...4...&... Snare

ryco-
Ask your drummer for a clear explanation.

[Alan U]

Well yes, I agree with Copeland, it is different. But alas shifting to 1&3 instead of 2&4 is about all reggae has contributed in my humble opinion.

I was a drummer in the 70s when I first heard Roxanne, and their other early records.
I realised how effective they were but it took me a while to suss what was going on.

Reggae verse Rock & Roll chorus! Hit after hit.
What a formula, tension and release. It works.

It worked for The Police, they made some great singles.

Personally I like some other Caribbean music though, like Ska/Bluebeat and not forgetting Calypso.

ps. I think Copeland has a terrible drum sound. The drums are so tightly tuned that they have lost the sound of drums. Just my opinion.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by COOL AND DEADLY

I think what you are descibing is the difference between straight 8 ( one and two and three and four ) and triplet feel ( one and A two and a three and a four.) Both are reggae with different feels. The straight 8 is used for slow-moderate-to fast, triplet for slow to moderate.

The writer was wanting the latter triplet feel - what I called a sort of swing feel.

Originally Posted by JimK

ryco- Ask your drummer for a clear explanation.

My drummer isn't really proficient with technical terms - he's a rock "feel" kind of guy.
After discussing the feel he agrees that it's like guitar and keys are playing double time over a slow bass and drum 2/4 time. Or a 6/8 I guess since it does feel like triplets as COOL was describing.

Maybe I'm not all that proficient at describing tech terms, either!

[Drifta]

typically the guitar and piano "skank" on the 2 & 4 on 4/4. snare and kick emphasised on the 3, which is one drop, but for real reggae feel you gotta be hitting the rim shot, mixxing it up with the high hats every so often on the 1.

My bass teacher was trying to tell me the proper way most reggae is written is really in cut time, but i cant explain that stuff yet haha. barely understand it myself. I started playing reggae as my first genre so it comes naturally now. I find rock drums and whatnot really confusing where the beat is or should be played. just not my thing haha.

[Drifta]

watch this vid with your drummer. pretty cool view. http://youtube.com/watch?v=K1vV1GDDYes theres alot of space in reggae so much room for variations, not really a 'set' way except for the 'one drop'

[MrBorisSpider]

One trick I've noticed with Carribean style riddims is to not lock in with the drummer's kick drum very often. You're mostly playing off his snare which is a complete 180 for most guys and gals like me who were raised on rock. Think of it like you're the rhythmn guitarist. They play more in time with the vocals than the drums.

One big tip I have is: relax. Even if you're playing tripplet 16ths, it's still a very lazy feel. It's not super-fast, Rocco Prestia playing Walking Up Hip Street 16ths. It's to paraphrase Ed Friedland 'smoke a joint rolled in a newspaper', relaxed 16ths. Pretend you're tired and play lazy (not sloppy, mind you).

Also, if you want to spend the cash, Ed Friedland's Reggae Bass book is really good.

[Drifta]

Originally Posted by MrBorisSpider

One trick I've noticed with Carribean style riddims is to not lock in with the drummer's kick drum very often. You're mostly playing off his snare which is a complete 180 for most guys and gals like me who were raised on rock. Think of it like you're the rhythmn guitarist. They play more in time with the vocals than the drums.

One big tip I have is: relax. Even if you're playing tripplet 16ths, it's still a very lazy feel. It's not super-fast, Rocco Prestia playing Walking Up Hip Street 16ths. It's to paraphrase Ed Friedland 'smoke a joint rolled in a newspaper', relaxed 16ths. Pretend you're tired and play lazy (not sloppy, mind you).

Also, if you want to spend the cash, Ed Friedland's Reggae Bass book is really good.

you hit it on the head. like i said earliar in thread first thing i played was reggae, so it makes sense that you say must lock in with snare, cause thats definately what i naturally do and i find my self a bit lost in rock type stuff. normally though the kick and snare are played at same time. but not always.

great point about relaxing. its the key in reggae. I find it most often that the rhythm guitarists and keyboardist need to learn this. they get a little to checky checky sometimes.