Playing scales up and down.

[Depth_Charge]

I have a book of scales and in some of them, they encourage me to play the scale up, then play the notes backwards - so a major scale would be played CDEFGABC followed by CBAGFEDC. The books calls this playing the scale "up and back", at least thats how I interpret it.

As I was running through these exercises in various keys, it dawned on me that if I was playing the scale "backwards", the notes wouldn't just be a reverse of the scale going up, would it?

[winstonthecat]

Not sure I get your meaning. If the scale is CDEFGABC going up, then going down would be CBAGFEDC. I'm not sure the word "backwards" really applies here, but it would seem to be the same thing. If not, would do you think a C scale backwards would be?

[Mark Wilson]

The best way to refer to a scale is "Ascending" and "Descending" or simply up and down.

A C major scale, is going to be a C major scale no matter if you play it Up or Down

[Audiophage]

Yeah, I see what you're saying there. Some books don't get their wording right because they don't think, but there really would only be one conclusion you could go to if you know your alphabet well. You can't "go up" abcdefg, and then "back down" abcedfg no matter how hard you try. That would be ascending 2 octaves.

[IAmTheDood]

yes .. that is one thing you'll find with bass .. scale going up .. is the same as the scale going down ...

and if you do it correctly across 4 frets and 3 strings ... the scales are all the same fingerings. you'll learn this rather quickly. After you do learn this .. work on 2 octave scales .. moving fingering positions so you really are looking at what fret the note is on .. not what finger to play.

[DocBop]

When just doing and octave or strictly in position not much to going up and down a scale. CDEFGABC-CBAGFEDC.

I would say as soon as you and your fingers have learned the fingering time to stop playing up and down in an octave or within a single position. You don't want to sound like scale when you play. So start doing sequences of notes, and playing scale in intervals. Do like 3-note sequences CDE, DEF, EFG, FGA, GAB, ABC, BCD and back down. Got the idea now then you can do like 4-note sequences. Then play the scale in intervals like 3rd's is a very usefull one to work on. CE, DF, EG, FA, GB, AC, BD and then back down. Do that also in 4th and other intervals. Make it better and go up an interval and down the next... CE, FD, EG, AF, GB, CA, BD and back down. Doing scales like that gets common melodic sounds under your fingers and in your ears. Then start working on playing two octave versions of all of the above.

A simple scale pratice would be play the scale up and down, play the arpeggio for the chord for that scale, play a sequence using that scale, and finish with a couple minutes of improvising/jamming using that scale. Once you get to doing this with two octave versions of scale, arpeggio, sequences, and improv you will really good knowledge of the fingerboard.

Once you have that down in C (about 10 minutes a day for a week should do it) you can move to next key or scale. One down ninety-nine to go.

[Infernal Affair]

DocBop: Thanks for the great advice. I've been trying to figure out a way to incorporate scale practice into my daily lessons without resorting to just doing ascenders and descenders + the arpeggios. I already started to break down playing into intervals by going root+interval in sequence (ex. C-D, C-E, C-F, C-G, C-A, C-B, C-C for a C-Major), but the bits about 3 and 4 note sequences and jamming afterward seem like really great ways to make scale practice fun!

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by winstonthecat

Not sure I get your meaning. If the scale is CDEFGABC going up, then going down would be CBAGFEDC. I'm not sure the word "backwards" really applies here, but it would seem to be the same thing. If not, would do you think a C scale backwards would be?

Let me try to better explain. The way I understand a scale is that it's a series of notes, incremented by steps. The major scale increments by Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half. Following that pattern, the C major scale resolves to CDEFGABC.

The book I am referring to recommends playing the scale up and down the neck, but the tab (and excuse mine) shows this:

G|------------4-5|5-4------------
D|------3-5-7----|---7-5-3-------
A|3-5-7----------|---------7-5-3-
E|---------------|----------------

Now, when I sit down and work out the theory behind coming back down, I don't see whats tabbed in the book to be the same scale increments as going up is (WWHWWWH), since coming down from C and playing a major scale, my brain thinks I should be playing a D again, not a B as I am in the example shown in the book.

So I was asking whether what the book shows is truly the C Major scale going up and down or not, since for my noobie brain, I think not.

[needmoney]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Let me try to better explain. The way I understand a scale is that it's a series of notes, incremented by steps. The major scale increments by Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half. Following that pattern, the C major scale resolves to CDEFGABC.

The book I am referring to recommends playing the scale up and down the neck, but the tab (and excuse mine) shows this:

G|------------4-5|5-4------------
D|------3-5-7----|---7-5-3-------
A|3-5-7----------|---------7-5-3-
E|---------------|----------------

Now, when I sit down and work out the theory behind coming back down, I don't see whats tabbed in the book to be the same scale increments as going up is (WWHWWWH), since coming down from C and playing a major scale, my brain thinks I should be playing a D again, not a B as I am in the example shown in the book.

So I was asking whether what the book shows is truly the C Major scale going up and down or not, since for my noobie brain, I think not.

You're right. It's not the same increments coming down, it's those increments backwards (so it's WWHWWWH reversed; HWWWHWW). But it's still a C major scale. The book is absolutely correct. It shows the major scale ascending (going up) and descending (going down). To be clear, the WWHWWWH formula which you are referring to determines the steps of a major scale going from C in this case, (the formula also applies to all major keys) to C in an ascending motion. It's rare you'll find a book explaining the increments (steps) of a scale going downwards (since it's always the same ascending increments just reversed*)

*except for classical Melodic Minor scales - but don't go there yet

[needmoney]

P.S. That's some great advice on the jamming at the end DocBob. But be aware and make sure you don't fall into the trap of just noodling mindlessly though. Just keep it strict and know what you're playing. Playing intervallic stuff is great, and it's also very wise to say (or better yet sing) the notes you are playing as you play them. You'll learn your fretboard much more thoroughly this way.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by needmoney

You're right. It's not the same increments coming down, it's those increments backwards (so it's WWHWWWH reversed; HWWWHWW). But it's still a C major scale. The book is absolutely correct. It shows the major scale ascending (going up) and descending (going down). To be clear, the WWHWWWH formula which you are referring to determines the steps of a major scale going from C in this case, (the formula also applies to all major keys) to C in an ascending motion. It's rare you'll find a book explaining the increments (steps) of a scale going downwards (since it's always the same ascending increments just reversed*)

*except for classical Melodic Minor scales - but don't go there yet

Haha, I won't. I'm having enough trouble wrapping my head around the basics

So the book is not teaching me to resolve the C Major scale down the fretboard, it's just having me play the scale reversed. When it comes to scale practice, is there any value in doing it this way?

To me, that means if a teacher asked me to play a C Major scale but play it down in pitch not up, and I regurgitated the 2nd half of that tab I've shown, I'd be playing it wrong...right?

[needmoney]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Haha, I won't. I'm having enough trouble wrapping my head around the basics

So the book is not teaching me to resolve the C Major scale down the fretboard, it's just having me play the scale reversed. When it comes to scale practice, is there any value in doing it this way?

To me, that means if a teacher asked me to play a C Major scale but play it down in pitch not up, and I regurgitated the 2nd half of that tab I've shown, I'd be playing it wrong...right?

Well in the second part of the tab, you are essentially travelling down the fretboard in a nutshell, and yes it's just the scale reversed (descending motion - CBAGFEDC). So if a teacher asked you to play a C Major scale, you would most often play the whole tab (ascending (up) then descending (down)). If they ask you to play a C Major scale and they specify descending only, then you play the second part of that tab. Vice versa for ascending.

There is absolutely a need to practice both ascending and descending. When you're trying to write a groove or play a tune, or especially play an improvised solo. You don't always want to be travelling upwards or you'll start to sound a little stale.

When you're talking about pitch, that's something different altogether. If a teacher asked you to play something down in pitch (normally an octave if you're in a certain key), then you shift the whole scale down an octave, and then play what the teacher has specified (ascending/descending/or both).

[chicagodoubler]

Be macho and start doing two octaves as early as possible. You'll have to deal with shifting, but by G*d it makes you stronger!

The best 4string two octave system I know is John Patitucci's.

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
2 4 1 2-2 4 1 2 4 1 2 4-1 3 4


start with second finger on 8th fret E string. End with pinky on 17th fret G string. The above numbers give you fingering with basically only one big shift for a great 2 octave fingering. The numbers give you left hand fingering, with dashes equating a shift. The first one (2-2) is just a little two fret position shift.

Try it for a week. You'll love it.

BTW Docbop has great advice as always. Try running three and four note groupins off each note, even across the treacherous valley of the two octave range. You'll thank us later.