Please dont FLAME me for this....

[Fire-Starter]

My head right now is so clogged that I cannot make sense of the following question even though I know there is a reason and a way to explain it, so..

Someone for example says, " ok guys, lets do this in D Minor with a 1,4,5 progression"

Student says.." well I know that D minor comes from the F Maj scale, which uses a B-flat, so I will just use the key of F Maj since they use the same notes!

I am sure at this point, the Student would be ask to leave or slapped, but I am trying to put this down on paper and in my head to be able to say or explain to myself or someone else the reason why his thinking is FLAWED. I am sure it has to do with modes and the movements etc...but....this is where I need some help, I just can't seem to explain it.

so HELP

[PSPookie]

It is my understanding that they use the same notes, but a different starting point (root).
Thus a I, IV, V progression in F Maj would be: F Maj, Bb Maj, C Maj. Whereas a I, IV, V progression in D Min would be: D min, G min, A min.

[anonymous02282011]

right, but you probably want an A7 chord rather than a A minor; that way you get a functional V chord with the leading tone (Csharp, the third of A7) leading to the root of the next chord, presumably Dminor. Not that is a right or wrong, but just to know the differences.

after all, it's all just sound.

[stedtale]

1, 4, 5 in d minor is

dm
gm
am(or AM-it depends on the tune)

[bearfoot]

We loves our Music Theory around here no one's going to flame you for that ~

And besides, you've answered your own question, it does have to do with modes. Minor keys have several variations, so although using the one-flat key signature might work, in places in might not. Major keys have variants as well, but with minor keys they seem to pop up a lot more. (Except Mixolydian (major variant) might actually be more common than standard (Ionian) major) Cmmon minor variations like harmonic minor, and the various modes you get with folk songs and rock.
It's also wrong because as the other poster states, it's a spelling error to say F major. Also the intonation of D minor is off from F, if you're not using frets. The note names are the same but their micro-tonations are different. As a vocalist and reed player I was more aware of it than in recent times more dominated by frets and keys.
D-minor , truly the saddest of keys

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Fire-Starter

Student says.." well I know that D minor comes from the F Maj scale, which uses a B-flat, so I will just use the key of F Maj since they use the same notes!

I am sure at this point, the Student would be ask to leave or slapped, but I am trying to put this down on paper and in my head to be able to say or explain to myself or someone else the reason why his thinking is FLAWED. I am sure it has to do with modes and the movements etc...but....this is where I need some help, I just can't seem to explain it.

so HELP

Your first line is how oh too many guitar player think after being one and teaching many. They try to find a way to analyze things down to one scale fits all constantly. I have seen some do the most insane analysis of a progression and chord subsitution to try and turn things in to one scale fits all.

Yes the notes of D natural minor and F major are identical, but if you were playing a bassline and the charts said D mi would you play an F major triad? The notes are right scale wise, but do they sound like D minor? That is the key the sound of the notes against the chord Dmi. When we think of a scale or a mode we tend to emphasize different notes. So if a Dmi scale I am more likely to think about a Dmi chord and play/emphasize D, F, A, and C more than the other notes. If play and thinking F major scale I'm thinking F chord and now going to empasize F, A, C, E more than the other notes. So all the notes are the same, but which ones you use more change for the situation. Its all about the ear.

So even though all the modes have the same notes of the parent scale, when you play them you tend to emphasize notes of the root of the mode. Just like in Rock using pentatonics On your Dmi your play a D minor pent' D, F, G, A, C, the chord changes to Gmi you move use Gmi pent' G, Bb, C, D, F all still notes from D natural minor, but you switch which notes your emphasizing so it sounds like Gmi.

I think I've repeated myself enough you should get the idea. Same notes but you use them differently.

[Fire-Starter]

You guys said what I could not, and I am glad you did chime in. The problem for me with theory is that I have found myself in more situations where people DON'T use or apply any theory in detail. Thanks for the help people!

[mutedeity]

I agree with DocBop. I would say too that it all comes down to your point of view and applicable limitations given the context of what you are doing. If you want to follow the progression stictly speaking and play the i iv v progression with D as the tonal centre then focusing on dm - gm - am with the respective aeolian, dorian and phrygian as your respective modal centres is probably the way to go.

On the other hand there is no reason why, if you are playing a "walking line" for example, that you can't think of FMaj as your modal structure in your mind's eye. This might mean that you are going to resolve eveything to your relative 6th and then again it might not. It really depends on how you see things and how practical your particular point of view is to playing under the conditions your are given.

[ryco]

If someone calls out a i iv V jam in D minor I'm more inclined to think in D minor than trying to tie it to it's relative major scale, F Maj. To me this seems an unnecessary (although interesting) step.

As Doc Bop's post says - same notes, different functions.

Use your ears and play around with different minors. Try out making IV and V Dominants instead of adhereing strictly to the diatonic chord/scales. Since it's a jam situation you can really explore what sounds different chord/scales have to offer.