Thanks everyone for their input. Anyone else have an insight to this dilemma?
Another thing that hasn't been discussed here is your "head space". Do you believe you have something to say on your instrument that people want to hear, whether they want to or not? Notice how in the Sharay Reed clip how he's surrounded by support, believe it or not that helps in getting over that hump of playing fills versus not playing them, coming up with creative lines versus not, having a tentative "feel" versus one that is more commanding, playing with the notion that what you have to offer is what people want to hear whether they know it or not.
Great workouts, you really use your time well, you have a good various, so keeps you motivated and interested, set of principals to work on.
But...and this is the reason I asked, see no mention of timing, so would you practice all this in 4/4.
Players set up practice to play even, to make each note have the same qualities as the previous, so they have an even sound and feel when they play. I have written about, talk about at demo days, open days etc..about such things over the years.
If just by reading what I have writing so far an idea should be forming that if a player all they ever do is practice being even, practice making their action strictly alternate, practice in 4/4.......then all these things are reinforcing an action and sound that is repeatable to the point it is seen as efficient and faultless......that is what we want in mechanical machine operations, cars, engineering etc.........but all this has nothing to do with groove, in fact groove belongs in the opposite skills and desires of all this.
Playing 4/4 is even, so is playing in between the beat, you are still dividing 4/4. Many players think they are playing off beat when in fact they are just playing in between the beat, they are still working in and reinforcing 4/4.
If we asume that timing can be broke down into two very clear areas, the feeling of even numbers, and the feeling of odd numbers, then when we combines these numbers we create new areas to work in.
7/8 so we have 8th notes, being divided into a group of four and a group of three, so it is when we play 7/4 but it is quarter notes divided into two groups.
So if they are being divided into groups of two they are simple time signatures, because that is really the definition of simple time, divide the beat into two smaller units. Compound time is the division of the beat into three smaller units.
If I stop at this point, because to much info can be pointless at this point (depending on the players abilities of course, but this is the web) and now ask you this.
Can you play your practice routines in 3/4 and 4/4?
We hear and read about practice in all 12 keys, but what about practice in the two most basic components of timing?
Because certain time signatures are just extensions of 3/4 and 4/4 ( not true in the strictest meanings but for now it applies) 3/8 has it roots in 3/4 as does 12/8 in 4/4. But if you play a slow song in 4/4 your sub-divisions are limited, but play the same song in 12/8 and more options on where you can be are open to you.
Tempo is a relation of time to the beat, not the timing of the beat.
If I played this;
1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---1---
Am I playing quarter notes over 16 bars?
Am I playing eighth notes over two bars?
Am I playing sixteenth notes over one bar?
It is obvious that tempo used to play this can be set, but because the tempo is the same there are more possibilities for sub-divisions of the time with eighth notes over quarter, and sixteenth notes over eighth notes.
It is not about speed, it is about sub-division, a player can play as fast and a furious as they want at 200bpm, but it will always be 200bpm, that's why most practice advice is about practice slow, practice so slow its like slow motion in your head, because the nuances of rhythm and sub division have nothing to do with tempo. Once it is under your fingers you just choose the tempo you want to play it at, again it is a skill that many work on without realising they can do it already.
Try playing your two octave rudiments in 4/4 then again in 12/8 and feel the difference. Then try them in 3/4 and again in 9/8.
Once you have these meters ( time signatures are also called called meters) under your fingers other meters become easier because you have a foundation to build and relate to, so you adapt what you already know to feel the new meter.
Now maybe your playing is starting to sound a little less mechanical, a little bit more intuitive, maybe tight but not in a mechanical way, maybe this is what groove is.......if so then why is timing away from 4/4 meters not practiced more and why is there such a focus on all notes being the same in sound, tonality, timbre etc?.....that is what a computer would sound like........wouldn't it?
I hope this helped, sorry if it made assumptions about your ability, but this is the web so a bit of over explanation and examples never hurt.
If you already practice meters then keep on it it pays off in the end, as does listening, it is amazing the amount of information we put under our fingers just by listening, and I mean hear it and understand, not just listen.
There's a lot of info here in this one post. Thank you for taking the time and posting all this for me. I really do appreciate it. I do work on my timing but not necessarily just with a metronome or a click track. I also used to play in a Kansas-Yes-Rush style prog rock group. We did a lot of 5/4, 7/8, 6/8, etc. kind of stuff. We would change up time signatures within the same song a lot of times. I also do studio work for people here in town so I can play to a click track too. I guess when it comes to timing, I go by feel but I see a lot of bassists in my genre all feel the song differently, thus playing accents on different beats than I would. I usually listen to the drummer's foot for where to put the accents at. That helps the rhythm section tighten things up a bit. I just wish I could feel some of these songs the way I hear other bassists feel them. Sharay Reed has a nice feel for the music he plays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Smith
Another thing that hasn't been discussed here is your "head space". Do you believe you have something to say on your instrument that people want to hear, whether they want to or not? Notice how in the Sharay Reed clip how he's surrounded by support, believe it or not that helps in getting over that hump of playing fills versus not playing them, coming up with creative lines versus not, having a tentative "feel" versus one that is more commanding, playing with the notion that what you have to offer is what people want to hear whether they know it or not.
That's kind of subjective depending on the crowd, like you said. I really can't answer that for myself because my answer will always be "yes" or I wouldn't be playing it. You could click on the link in my signature. It's a clip of a song I worked on with a studio owner here in town. It's not a finished song, meaning it hasn't been mixed down and mastered yet, but I liked what I did so I kept the unmixed version because my bass was up in front. In your opinion, is what I'm playing in that song something you would want to hear? Does it serve the song? Does it catch your ear or would it catch the ear of the average listener? I think so but I'm biased because I played the bass line. I'd like to have some input from someone other than myself, if you don't mind taking a minute to listen.
That's kind of subjective depending on the crowd, like you said. I really can't answer that for myself because my answer will always be "yes" or I wouldn't be playing it. You could click on the link in my signature. It's a clip of a song I worked on with a studio owner here in town. It's not a finished song, meaning it hasn't been mixed down and mastered yet, but I liked what I did so I kept the unmixed version because my bass was up in front. In your opinion, is what I'm playing in that song something you would want to hear? Does it serve the song? Does it catch your ear or would it catch the ear of the average listener? I think so but I'm biased because I played the bass line. I'd like to have some input from someone other than myself, if you don't mind taking a minute to listen.
What you're playing is fine, there just aren't many tantalizing bass bits in there like your fill at 2:16-2:17. If that were Sharay Reed, you'd hear a lot more of that (I suppose of course ).
Sharay is a gospel player. Much of his playing comes from his time playing in black churches and absorbing those influences. Just like any style, if you want to learn it you have to study the masters and immerse yourself in it.
Plus I imagine that Sharay is also immersed in the cultural music going on in Chicago these days too. He probably grew up hearing lots of R&B, Funk, Hip Hop, Rap, etc... But the runs you are hearing in the first video are totally gospel bass style.
Start listening to some Fred Hammond bass work and branch off from there.
Find an AME Zion church in your town and volunteer to play bass for them. I got a chance to do this for a while and it was a real eye and ear opener for me!
What you're playing is fine, there just aren't many tantalizing bass bits in there like your fill at 2:16-2:17. If that were Sharay Reed, you'd hear a lot more of that (I suppose of course ).
Yeah, they didn't want too much stuff, just a nice solid groove and a fill here and there. Believe me, I wanted to do more. The beginning run at the 6 second mark is the only other one I do. When we rehearsed this song I was all over the place, since this is ho I can feel the song out for what I can do in it, and he said to tame it down for the recording. I obliged, of course. In need the work.
Here's another one I did at a service at our church. I played around a little bit more with some fills. Some sounded good, others, ehhh not so good. I made some mistakes but had fun doing it.
Sharing a bit of what I learned from my teacher Patrick Pfeiffer (NYC; and yes - getting a good teacher is extremely valuable!)
He breaks down playing and practicing grooves somewhat like this:
- groove has a skeleton. This is what defines its overall feel; literally, what you play (and don't) on 1 and 2. Two 16ths, or an 8th, or a quarter, with endless combinations. This is a separate area of work - working into your brain+fingers all the endless combinations that make up cool sounding skeletons. Each style of music has sort of a family of groove skeletons that work for it; so that when you hear it you go "that sounds RnB-ish", or whatnot.
- groove has an apex. The note that sticks out - either because it is the highest, or the most emphasized. This is what makes groove memorable. This is secondary, you can have grooves without apex. Another work area - working on memorable/cool apexes.
- groove may have modal movement. That is, implying change of tonality where there is none, actually. Think of playing a two-bar repeating phrase over Gm7 and prominently, but shortly, using note C (maybe somewhere in bar 2, so that overall feel stays with Gm7). Patrick made me practice these, too.
- ghost notes. I practice those by inserting them into any exercise I play, so they become a (useful) habit.
how much transcribing of that sharay clip have you done yet? you could be analyzing it yourself. all the exercises in the world pale in comparison to sitting down and listening, not sitting back and admiring.
This might not work for everyone but I put on a metronome and just take an idea and play with it until I feel it's pretty much run it's course. I don't use band in a box or a drum machine because I want to do all the work myself. Then I take the best pieces of my improv and record them. I wind up junking most of it, but it works for me. I've used some of my ideas for warm up at band practice and everyone seems to like them.
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Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and win with experience - Mark Twain.
how much transcribing of that sharay clip have you done yet? you could be analyzing it yourself. all the exercises in the world pale in comparison to sitting down and listening, not sitting back and admiring.
+1 - I alluded to this at the beginning of the thread. Working on voice leading and 2 octave arpeggios to a 120 BPM setting on a metronome will not get one much closer to playing this style well. Not sullying the idea of working on voice leading or metronome drills, but these concepts do not net the same results as transcription work.
Truth in point : in my 20's - back when the earth was still cooling and partially covered by hot lava - I attended a master class presented by Anthony Jackson. This is the closest thing to actually studying with him one-on-one. Even after doing this, I wasn't really able to approach bass parts in the manner he does. I had yet to do the work of sitting down, transcribing his work, wearing out cassette tapes doing it, and playing along with it over and over and over again until I could absorb it into my own vocabulary. YES, the earlier arpeggio work and metronome stuff I did earlier did help, but the key in the lock lies in the old adage of transcribe, transcribe, transcribe.
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"I taught them everything they know, but not everything I know" - James Brown
+1 - I alluded to this at the beginning of the thread. Working on voice leading and 2 octave arpeggios to a 120 BPM setting on a metronome will not get one much closer to playing this style well. Not sullying the idea of working on voice leading or metronome drills, but these concepts do not net the same results as transcription work.
Truth in point : in my 20's - back when the earth was still cooling and partially covered by hot lava - I attended a master class presented by Anthony Jackson. This is the closest thing to actually studying with him one-on-one. Even after doing this, I wasn't really able to approach bass parts in the manner he does. I had yet to do the work of sitting down, transcribing his work, wearing out cassette tapes doing it, and playing along with it over and over and over again until I could absorb it into my own vocabulary. YES, the earlier arpeggio work and metronome stuff I did earlier did help, but the key in the lock lies in the old adage of transcribe, transcribe, transcribe.
definitely. this seems to get lost a lot these days with all the info available on line. i expect this to a certain extent from my students who are never going to be players, but see this as well from those with talent. what exercise or pattern will make be amazing?
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