Practicing Dotted-Eighths

[michaelkoss]

Dotted-eighths are kicking my butt. I'm trying to learn the song "Give a Little More" by Maroon 5. The entire baseline is three dotted-eighths starting on the "one." I can hit them when I practice slowly (around 70 bpm) but when I get much faster than that I fall out of time on the second and third notes.

Does anyone have a suggestion on finding the timing on these? Should I just continue pressing through at 70 bpm even though I don't seem to be making much progress?

Thanks,
Michael

[MalcolmAmos]

Muscle memory - old rhythm guitar trick. Take your bass to the couch and watch some TV. Do your dotted eighth note rhythm - unplugged - over and over, while watching an hour TV show. At the end of the hour show that rhythm will be in muscle memory.

Course if you practice a sloppy rhythm you will put the sloppy rhythm in muscle memory............. Keep in control if you lose control slow back down.

Have fun.

[michaelkoss]

Would it help to create a midi track of the correct beat (without drums, vocals, etc), turn it on in the background, and play to it while watching tv? That way I wouldn't practice a sloppy rhythm.

[Warfender]

R

Originally Posted by michaelkoss

Would it help to create a midi track of the correct beat (without drums, vocals, etc), turn it on in the background, and play to it while watching tv? That way I wouldn't practice a sloppy rhythm.

+1. Use a metronome or track on band in a box.

[Bredian]

sounded like "dotted" quarters -either way, its a standard beat you need to know.

1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8

The rhythm guitar thing works also. 4 downstrokes per measure, mute the 2nd, 3rd and play the upstroke between.

I looked at the sheet music and it doesn't show the bass line played.

[michaelkoss]

Originally Posted by Bredian

1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8

I understand the technicals of the timing, I just can't get it down. It runs too fast for me to count 1/16th notes at 118 bpm. That's the reason I can nail it at 70 or so but lose it when it gets faster.

[onlyclave]

The trick to a dotted-eighth-sixteenth rhythm is to understand how the rhythm works. The 'Dot' technically belongs to the eighth note and "extends" it one half of it's value, but in truth the 'Dot' actually separates and creates space between the first and the second note.

The second note technically belongs in the same beat as the first note, but since you've already detached them with the dot, you use the sixteenth note as a pickup to the next beat. Just listen to the drums in the first four bars. The kick drum doesn't sustain and so the disconnection between the first and second note is automatically there. The second kick drum note is the 16th and it is a pickup note to the snare hit.

Don't think of it as beat-b-beat-beat-b-beat, think Beat. B-Beat. Beat. B-Beat.

[bassybill]

Just listened to this - in the chorus, the bass line is two (not three) dotted eighths, followed by a quarter note. That might be why what you're playing is sounding "off" to you.

I'd probably write it out like this (attached). I've omitted the staccato dots just to avoid clutter.

You've really got to focus on hearing those 16ths ticking away all the time to nail a groove like this. "BAPita BAPita BAP, BAP".

Here's a link to the track for context (for other readers).

Maroon 5 - Give A Little More - YouTube

Dreadful autotune on the vox. Ugh.

[Russell L]

Practice. Just be careful not to let it start sounding like swing (triplets with the first two notes tied together).

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Just listened to this - in the chorus, the bass line is two (not three) dotted eighths, followed by a quarter note. That might be why what you're playing is sounding "off" to you.

I'd probably write it out like this (attached). I've omitted the staccato dots just to avoid clutter.

You've really got to focus on hearing those 16ths ticking away all the time to nail a groove like this. "BAPita BAPita BAP, BAP".

Here's a link to the track for context (for other readers).

Maroon 5 - Give A Little More - YouTube

Dreadful autotune on the vox. Ugh.

While metrically correct your example is very difficult to read. Grouping like that indicates a triplet meter regardless of where you have your dots.

You need to use 8th-16th tied to show where the beats are.

[EscapeNote]

Michael - Bassy Bill's right in that the dotted quarter - eighth figure is only the first couple of notes.

It's good to break this stuff down and understand it in terms of notation, as others have suggested. But there comes a point at which you can 'over-think' a thing, if you get my drift.

Can you sing it? I don't mean the vocal line; can you sing the rhythm of the bass part? If you can internalize the groove then you'll have a much better chance of transferring that to your hands.

My two cents: put down the bass, play the recording, tap your foot in time to the beat and sing that bass line rhythm along with the song. If you can do that than you'll internalize the groove and I think you'll find that when you pick up the bass it will come more naturally.

IME - I hope that helps!

[JimK]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Just listened to this - in the chorus, the bass line is two (not three) dotted eighths, followed by a quarter note. That might be why what you're playing is sounding "off" to you.

I'd probably write it out like this (attached). I've omitted the staccato dots just to avoid clutter.

You've really got to focus on hearing those 16ths ticking away all the time to nail a groove like this. "BAPita BAPita BAP, BAP".

Here's a link to the track for context (for other readers).

Maroon 5 - Give A Little More - YouTube

Dreadful autotune on the vox. Ugh.

Originally Posted by onlyclave

While metrically correct your example is very difficult to read. Grouping like that indicates a triplet meter regardless of where you have your dots.

You need to use 8th-16th tied to show where the beats are.

Yeah, I agree.

The 1st three notes would be like the "3" component of a 3:2 Clave (in a 1-bar phrase)-
/1__a__&___&_4___/ The "a" is TIED to Beat_2
(or /1__&__4_/__2_3___/ in a 2-bar phrase)

So the whole phrase BB transcribed would be something like-
/1__a__&___&_____/


To the OP-
This is a pretty common figure/rhythm.
Bone up one some Latin/Afro-Cuban music/rhythms. Should also help in not playing on "1" & crossing the barline rhythms.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

While metrically correct your example is very difficult to read. Grouping like that indicates a triplet meter regardless of where you have your dots.

You need to use 8th-16th tied to show where the beats are.

I wouldn't see any triplets there at all if I was presented with that chart to read. But I can see how the beaming might be a little confusing.

I personally find that I can read stuff like this quite well as long as the bar breaks into two halves cleanly. So I make sure that notation leaves the 1 and 3 plainly visible, but dotted notes either side of that are okay, no ties needed.

EDIT - okay, I'm convinced, there's a better way to notate this (see below).

[michaelkoss]

These replies have all be great: very helpful and informative. I appreciate everyone's willingness to help.

I'm going to try combining two of the suggestions:

Singing the bass line while in the car and at work, when I don't have my bass with me

Playing the bass line to a click track for an hour. It can't hurt and if it helps, it's an hour well spent.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[Almy]

I would suggest practicing the basic idea of counting dotted eighths separate from the song itself. There are a couple basic ways of counting rhythms, one commonly used and one not as common. I apologize if this is too basic for you, not trying to belittle just making sure I'm not coming from left field.

Each syllable and number is a sixteenth note in a 4/4 measure. But you only want to say the number and the "a" or "ta" out loud.

(long e for 'e' and 'uh' for 'a')

1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 e and a

or

(long e for the "ti" hey for the "te" and ah for the "ta")

1 ti te ta 2 ti te ta 3 ti te ta 4 ti te ta

Becoming familiar with counting like this allows you to see where things happen in the context of a beat and measure.

[michaelkoss]

Almy,

No offense taken. I know about the 1 e + a counting and it helps a lot when playing at slow speeds. I know to hit the 1, 1a, and 2+ but when the song plays at tempo, I can't think the beats fast enough. Maybe I just need to keep practicing counting at faster and faster tempos.

[Fergie Fulton]

Rather than count phrases,( because sometimes you just do not have the time or cannot count that fast) learn to recognise the groupings. Every time you come across a grouping of notes learn how the grouping or phrase plays rather than sounds, then look for others with the same grouping and phrasing and you will see that in the case of this song that this will repeat regulary in the piece.

Because this is a common "feel" you will then recognise it in other songs and music you see. If you now apply this idea to other beats, grouping and phrasing you will build up a dictionary or rhythms and beats, which like words you will recognise when you see them and immeadiatly know how they play rather than how the sound. So in effect you are treating phrases and grouping as words with a meaning in rhythm, and looking for these "words to repeat in the music"

How they sound will depend on the pitches of the notes used, but the rhythm will always be the same. I would say practice these points on a single line or space on the staff so the pitch of any notes does not detract you from the rhythmic quality you seek. By seeing the rhythm of these "words" you are now free to work on the actual playing of the notes in there correct pitches and fingerings without also having to worry about how they feel...you have infact internalized these rhythms

[JimK]

Originally Posted by bassybill

I personally find that I can read stuff like this quite well as long as the bar breaks into two halves cleanly. So I make sure that notation leaves the 1 and 3 plainly visible, but dotted notes either side of that are okay, no ties needed.

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Because this is a common "feel" you will then recognise it in other songs and music you see. If you now apply this idea to other beats, grouping and phrasing you will build up a dictionary or rhythms and beats, which like words you will recognise when you see them and immeadiatly know how they play rather than how the sound. So in effect you are treating phrases and grouping as words with a meaning in rhythm, and looking for these "words to repeat in the music"

BB-
I know you are the Duke of Dots...still, easier to see/read a Dotted 1/8th & a 1/16th tied to Beat 2 + an 1/8th on the "& of 2".
Like Fergie sez...you see something like that & you (should) immediately know how that sounds (like reading a word vs. reading a word's individual letters).

The 2 Dotted 1/8th notes grouped with another 1/8th note had me goin' ????

[bassybill]

You mean like the attached pic, Jim? This version definitely does look more correct as you can see each of the four beats. Personally I wouldn't have too much trouble with my earlier version as the two-beat groupings are easily visible (to me, anyway) - but yes, I can see why it might look odd at first glance.

[JimK]

Yeah! That's better. Much easier on these eyes!
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