Probably a dumb question...

[fsf347]

but its something iv been wondering.

For SOME people that dont take the time to learn theory/read music, how can they still be "good" when it comes to jamming/improving?

I can read, understand a decent amount of theory, scales, modes, etc.

The problem i find myself in most of the time is when im jamming.

Lets say Im playing a progression in F Minor.

I play the i chord for 2 bars, in 8th position. no problem.

but then i want to play the iv chord in 1st position.

How do those who do not understand theory know exactly which notes will fit in correctly in the scale in this new position, if they do not even know what notes exactly make up the scale, when i cannot?

[jmercer91]

ears

[TortillaChip520]

after playing for a while, you start to realize what notes sound with which chord.

[DeluxeRed]

They (we?) hear it in their heads before they play it. That's part of it. The Music of the Spheres, the Voice of God. A blessing, that's fer sure.

But I think part of it is the freedom of NOT knowing the theory. "That" kind of bass player isn't looking at "i...in [the] 8th position...then..iv", they're looking at the whole song, the whole melody, the whole feel. You're not moving to the 1st position, you're moving to the next appropriate note or group of notes. I play a lot of things "wrong", because the way I "see" the notes strung together may not fit proper theory. But it sounds gooood.

I do both. I learned bass by playing bass long before I had a chance to study music, both in school and on my own. Some of it is experience, but I can usually hear the interval I want to jump, and do that, whether it's a half-step-or-a-whole decision, or jumping to another key.

Try to find a balance. Don't play from your head or your heart, play from your hands. But play.

[fsf347]

thanks everyone, this was actually quite helpful.

i have a tendency to overthink/make things complicated....

[kr0n]

Wooten: "You're never more than a half step away from a right note."

So basically, even just by guessing you're playing the right note half the time. And sometimes even the notes outside the scale & chord sound good.

Just wiggle your fingers. And play interesting intervals and rhythmic phrases.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by fsf347

The problem i find myself in most of the time is when im jamming. Lets say Im playing a progression in F Minor. I play the i chord for 2 bars, in 8th position. no problem. but then i want to play the iv chord in 1st position. How do those who do not understand theory know exactly which notes will fit in correctly in the scale in this new position, if they do not even know what notes exactly make up the scale, when i cannot?

They play patterns. Patterns put the notes under your fingertips automatically, i.e. they know what pattern will get the job done and then they rely upon the pattern - to get the job done.

I'm a structured kinda guy, I've figured out what normally works and what does not and I just do what normally works.

Major key - I IV V will work for the chord progression. Major pentatonic over the chords or Ionian, Lydian (#4) & Mixolydian (b7) will work for the lead melody notes. Notice modes are last on my list. Pentatonics are easier and give me three chord tones (which I need to harmonize) and two safe passing notes.

Minor key - i-iv-V will work for the chord progression. Minor pentatonic over the chords or Aeolian, Dorian (6) & Phrygian (b2) will work for the melody notes.

Are there other things that will work better? Perhaps, but, in jamming close enough gets the job done. Song called out to be "Kiss Old Sallie" in G. You gotta make a decision and start playing.

As mentioned earlier; "if you make a bad decision, you are just one note away from a good one". Adjust on the fly.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by fsf347

but its something iv been wondering.

For SOME people that dont take the time to learn theory/read music, how can they still be "good" when it comes to jamming/improving?

I can read, understand a decent amount of theory, scales, modes, etc.

The problem i find myself in most of the time is when im jamming.

Lets say Im playing a progression in F Minor.

I play the i chord for 2 bars, in 8th position. no problem.

but then i want to play the iv chord in 1st position.

How do those who do not understand theory know exactly which notes will fit in correctly in the scale in this new position, if they do not even know what notes exactly make up the scale, when i cannot?

Simple, they are playing and reacting, not thinking about what they are playing and how they are playing it. This has nothing to do with theory but understanding a live situation. Theory is there to explain music to another, a jam session is not... it is about reacting to playing.

We can all speak and read lauguage well enough, we have most of our lives, yet stand up in public and make a speech at a function, wedding, event, etc and for most that skill deserts them, because the delivery is the focus of attention not the words on the page. In performing it can be the same.
By the way great question, not a dumb one.

[JulienJeff]

Originally Posted by TortillaChip520

after playing for a while, you start to realize what notes sound with which chord.

exactly. I've never learnt theory. I know which note I play, that's all. and with the time, I've learnt which notes can be played with which chords

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

We can all speak and read language well enough, we have most of our lives, yet stand up in public and make a speech at a function, wedding, event, etc and for most that skill deserts them, because the delivery is the focus of attention not the words on the page. In performing it can be the same.
By the way great question, not a dumb one.

Good analogy.

[Rudreax]

As has been said, it comes from understand what sounds to play in a given situation. That mainly comes from experience.

Of course, that's not to say that learning theory is bad or anything like that. If you're learning it CORRECTLY, it should be so ingrained in your head you don't have to literally think about it to use it.

[GlennPagano]

I started out playing bass by learning theory at the same time. I have been playing for seven months and whenever I jam I just play in the correct major or minor scale without really thinking about it. I find myself wanting to explore a little bit more and play different notes but I always find myself going back to the major/minor scale I was playing in the first place. I think that I have learned theory a little to much because I feel I can't be very creative. When ever I want to make up a riff, I feel constrained to just the scale I should be playing in, my fingers just play in that one area. I want to be more free but I can't.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by GlennPagano

I started out playing bass by learning theory at the same time. I have been playing for seven months and whenever I jam I just play in the correct major or minor scale without really thinking about it. I find myself wanting to explore a little bit more and play different notes but I always find myself going back to the major/minor scale I was playing in the first place. I think that I have learned theory a little to much because I feel I can't be very creative. When ever I want to make up a riff, I feel constrained to just the scale I should be playing in, my fingers just play in that one area. I want to be more free but I can't.

Oi...the problem isn't that you learned too much. It's rare for you to ever learn too much of any subject, and theory is the kind of thing that can only hinder you if you let it hinder you. If you're letting what you know stop you from being creative, you either need to learn/play more or you're putting yourself in a box.

Understand that simply learning music theory isn't going to make you better or worse. When it comes down to it, all it is is a way to explain musical aspects to yourself and others. If you want to play outside of scales, start playing outside of scales and see where that takes you. The only thing that can stop you from playing anything is yourself.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by GlennPagano

I started out playing bass by learning theory at the same time. I have been playing for seven months and whenever I jam I just play in the correct major or minor scale without really thinking about it. I find myself wanting to explore a little bit more and play different notes but I always find myself going back to the major/minor scale I was playing in the first place.

Think about playing the pentatonic scale instead of the full 7 note scale and play them over each chord. The major pentatonic scale R-2-3-5-6 and the minor pentatonic R-b3-4-5-b7 gives you three chord tones - which you need to harmonize the chord you are playing over and two safe passing notes. When this is comfortable then use those 5 notes (not in order) to make melodic phrases. That will get your creative juices going.

I think that I have learned theory a little to much because I feel I can't be very creative. When ever I want to make up a riff, I feel constrained to just the scale I should be playing in, my fingers just play in that one area. I want to be more free but I can't.

Instead of thinking about scale notes think about using chord tones (notes of the chord) and get creative how you use those notes. Here is an easy way to move out of the area you are in. Everything starts over at the 13th fret. Move up a couple of octaves - if you are playing major scale root on the 4th string 3rd fret, i.e. G - add 12 and play that G scale at the 15th fret 4th string. See if that adds something.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by GlennPagano

When ever I want to make up a riff, I feel constrained to just the scale I should be playing in, my fingers just play in that one area. I want to be more free but I can't.

Lose the scales. Chord tones are where it's at.