Problem with ear-playing and my fretless...

Fassa Albrecht · #1 06-11-2010, 10:30 PM

I've posted this on another forum without too much luck in finding a solution.

I dug out my fretless (my Shergold) for the first time in a good while yesterday. As I began to play I noticed I was struggling to differentiate between some notes, such as G sharp and A, Bb and B and also F and F sharp.

Now I had my intonation checked with the help of a bandmate and that seems to be fine. I checked amp settings and they're also fine (I thought I might be EQ'ed wrongly). I also tried with my other amp.

My hearing isn't brilliant, but all my last hearing tests came back with good results, so I know it's not me.

I only get this with my fretless. On my fretted Yamaha I'm having no trouble.

Any ideas TB?

Chris K · #2 06-11-2010, 10:46 PM

Playing fretless requires daily practice to keep up your level of intonation. I only play fretless, but if I can't play for a week or so, I already notice that I need to polish up my intonation.

If you believe you can find your positions blindfolded (as you should), and the problem is with the instrument, check your bridge settings

Fassa Albrecht · #3 06-11-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris K

Playing fretless requires daily practice to keep up your level of intonation. I only play fretless, but if I can't play for a week or so, I already notice that I need to polish up my intonation.

If you believe you can find your positions blindfolded (as you should), and the problem is with the instrument, check your bridge settings

I've always had a few issues with the bridge....cheers!

bassdog · #4 06-12-2010, 11:35 AM

Is it unlined? I played unlined fretless for a while and gave it up because I never got very good at it. I also had a small chip on my shoulder about lined vs unlined. Part of the problem was volume of the group. It is essential to be able to hear yourself very well. I eventually put my ego aside a realized that lined is the way to go. Just look at how may pros have lined fretless basses. With a lined fretless, one can practice on a fretted and transfer to the fretless pretty easily. One must learn to finger the fretted bass right at the fret, not in the middle. That is what Jaco said and did. The fretless is played pretty much at the line (fret) for good intonation. The whole idea is playing in tune. That is the main thing to go for. If lines are needed for that, then so be it and never let anybody give you grief about. Bob

Chris K · #5 06-12-2010, 01:43 PM

The point is that you should able to intonate by ear. Lines are OK to learn to play fretless in the first stages, but you should get accustomed to looking away from the neck, either to read your music sheet or to watch the chicks dancing.

On a fretted bass. BTW, you are supposed to finger right behind the fret, not in the middle. Many players use lined fretless basses because they prefer fretless Fender J-basses, that are all lined in commemoration of Jaco's harsh surgery on his fretted bass. Only the Steve Bailey six string models are unlined.

Check out his book:

http://www.amazon.com/Fretless-Bass-.../dp/0739040790

Most other brands carry unlined fretless with side dots only. Personally I hate lines, because you''re just not supposed to watch your hands, either on fretless or fretted bass.

bassdog · #6 06-12-2010, 02:28 PM

"The point is that you should able to intonate by ear. Lines are OK to learn to play fretless in the first stages,..."

Says who?

I used the lines for reference. Sure helped my intonation. One can still look away from the neck.

Regards

somegeezer · #7 06-12-2010, 02:35 PM

"Personally I hate lines, because you''re just not supposed to watch your hands, either on fretless or fretted bass."
My arse. I don't care what people say, if you don't watch what you play, how can you know you're playing it right? Being a musician isn't always to do with your ears. As much as sound is the main part of music, you also need to see and feel. Even go crazy, smell and taste it if you feel you need to!

RFord04 · #8 06-12-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris K

Many players use lined fretless basses because they prefer fretless Fender J-basses, that are all lined in commemoration of Jaco's harsh surgery on his fretted bass.

Please, site this for us all.

Gawd · #9 06-12-2010, 03:12 PM

Something that has been helping me with fretless intonation is studying Arabic Maqamat. They include quarter-tones and very specific intonation of notes, like an E half-flat isn't always the exact same, sometimes it's a few cents lower or higher. This forces you to focus on intonation on a very precise scale.

This site is great help, it has many maqamat listed and explained. http://www.maqamworld.com/

fdeck · #10 06-12-2010, 05:19 PM

My electric bass has a lined board because I de-fretted it. The lines are not too obnoxious because I used a nearly matching color to fill the slots. I can vouch that it is possible to glance at the lines while performing all of the other duties of the bassist: Reading, interacting with the other players, watching the audience, and so forth. Staring at the lines all the time would be a problem, but one that I have never experienced.

Of course it might help if I practiced more, but electric isn't my main instrument. I use the same techniques on electric for achieving intonation most of the time, but I'll be jiggered if I can figure out how anybody can, for instance, reach up and reliably grab a random note in the upper registers, such as F on the G string, without some visual reference.

I'd say, if you can pull that off, then you're a candidate for an un-lined board. I'm not, and my first responsibility is to play in tune.

To the OP, this sounds like an issue with hearing, rather than technique. I think that those of us who don't have perfect pitch have to learn how to make use of relative pitch, and at least in my case, I find that it improves when I am playing more often. You mentioned once that you played cello. I suggest using the same techniques to work on fretless intonation, most importantly, don't let yourself play in tune, so that you give yourself a chance to re-train your ears.

Jim Campbell · #11 06-12-2010, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somegeezer

"Personally I hate lines, because you''re just not supposed to watch your hands, either on fretless or fretted bass."
My arse. I don't care what people say, if you don't watch what you play, how can you know you're playing it right? Being a musician isn't always to do with your ears. As much as sound is the main part of music, you also need to see and feel. Even go crazy, smell and taste it if you feel you need to!

i dunno......i've seen lots of orchestral db'ers and none of them ever look away from the chart......i may not be able to nail every note without a look here and there but i think of it as a goal.....

fdeck · #12 06-12-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

i dunno......i've seen lots of orchestral db'ers and none of them ever look away from the chart......

Even to look at the conductor.

Quote:

i may not be able to nail every note without a look here and there but i think of it as a goal.....

Same here, but the music takes priority over what my fretboard looks like.

On DB, it seems easier to me, perhaps because I practice more, but also, the neck is shorter, and has more reference points such as the curves at the chin and shoulder.

dtiii · #13 06-12-2010, 09:50 PM

Lined or unlined, practice is the key. I play an unlined fingerboard. In order to work pitch I do the following in my practice:

-constantly reference the harmonic system on the instrument
-play over open-string drones
-practice walking bass lines very slowly
-do a lot of scale and arpeggio work
-play melodies
-record myself and listen for issues

As stated by Chris K, consistent practice will remedy pitch problems.

cmewhinney · #14 06-12-2010, 10:07 PM

Good hand position is key to playing in tune consistently. One finger per fret when possible, and double bass technique (1,2,4) down at the low end where the distance between pitches makes one finger per fret difficult. Works like a charm.

Drop-the-One · #15 06-12-2010, 10:12 PM

Practise daily

Ear Training. Get someone to sit down on a piano and hit random keys. starting with just F and F# all octaves. Do this JUST as often as playing fretless.

Singing helps BIG TIME too.

Chris K · #16 06-12-2010, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassdog

"The point is that you should able to intonate by ear. Lines are OK to learn to play fretless in the first stages,..."

Says who?

My name is right above the post on the left side.

But you are right to see my remarks as nothing more than an opinion, given only to encourage you to learn proper technique, and certainly not to put you down.

Good luck.

Chris K · #17 06-12-2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

i dunno......i've seen lots of orchestral db'ers and none of them ever look away from the chart......i may not be able to nail every note without a look here and there but i think of it as a goal.....

+1
Every fretless player takes a glance every now and then and even the greatest fretless and db players (and singers, and violinists, and slide trombonists) have a percentage of slight misintonations. So intonation correction technique is important.

If you really want to learn to play fretless, you should treat it as a new instrument and not expect yourself to be nearly as good on it as on your fretted. Start at the beginning (intonation, doubles) and spend most of your practice time on it.

Chris K · #18 06-12-2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somegeezer

"Personally I hate lines, because you''re just not supposed to watch your hands, either on fretless or fretted bass."
My arse. I don't care what people say, if you don't watch what you play, how can you know you're playing it right? Being a musician isn't always to do with your ears. As much as sound is the main part of music, you also need to see and feel. Even go crazy, smell and taste it if you feel you need to!

How about internalising good intonation and technique first and then go crazy? Wow.

kesslari · #19 06-13-2010, 12:04 AM

Fassa, didn't you quit bass to play drums a few weeks ago?

CDweller · #20 06-13-2010, 07:13 AM

One of my goals as a bassist, whether fretted electric, fretless, or db, is complete freedom from having to see my hand on the neck in order to find the notes. I don't see this as the "right" way to play bass, but in my own mind it is something that I want to accomplish- how others play is not my business. It's also not my business to tell others how they should play.

I practice a silly but enjoyable riff towards this goal- the little bass solo from Free's "Alright Now". To play this fun ditty, I jump from the second position to the G at the 17th fret on the D string. It's taken a few months, but I can now reliably do it with my eyes closed. I can see that the entire fret or fingerboard will be available to me at some point without needing visual reference- my mind will know where the notes are, and guide my fingers to the proper positions.

Practice, practice, practice. If blind people can do it, so can I.