Prog / Hard rock bassists - what do you practice?

[Kurisu]

Just wondering if the prog/hard rockers could write down some of their experiences here. What part of your practice routine has helped you the most?

What I'm trying to get at is this: listening to (for ex.) Geddy's and Chris Squire's lines has me a bit confused - they're not really playing grooves. Instead it sounds like modal improv... and it's really fast.

I'm trying to transcribe these lines (it's tough) and work up the speed to reproduce them (it's tough). Is this the best way to practice?

My goal is to be able to create lines like these, eventually. Any help would be appreciated!

[pocketmonster]

I would say the first key is knowing the songs really well. Listen to them in your car and hum the bass lines. If you can't sing the part you can't play it either.

Second key is not trying to learn whole song at once. Focus in on one section at a time. If you want to learn some great Geddy lines, consider the song Xanadu. Learn just the monster riff at the beginning and then tackle other pieces of the song. Most of the parts in this song are repetitive, and for learning that is a good thing. Also, most of his playing in it is fairly exposed (easy to hear).

Finally, master the lines at a slower tempo and work up to speed. It takes a lot of practice, but eventually you will be able to play them in your sleep.

[Kurisu]

Hey pocketmonster! I get how to learn the lines, and I'm (slowly) training my ear - I was just wondering if this is what other prog or rock bassists find is the best way to learn how to create these lines on their own.

What are some of the other ways to practice that you've found to be as helpful, or more helpful?

[pocketmonster]

Your original post did not make it sound like you had the learning and playing part down - hence the answer I gave.

Creating these parts is a whole different animal. In progressive rock, you are hearing two different sorts of things in a song. Some is the product of jam sessions where whole passages are written around an idea or a riff. Other times, the song follows a more conventional chord progression and you see more of a jazz improv type of bass line.

A good song for seeing how these components fit together is Anthem. The entire beginning of the song was riff-derived, so Geddy didn't go off and write his own line; the guitar, bass, and drums were written to work together as a unit, tracking tightly all the way through the riff. Once the song moves into the verses, the bass line is written to follow the chord progression with the melody and guitar and to work with the drums to form the rhythm. Choosing the notes is really no different from jazz. Sometimes the bass is bouncing among notes in the chord, and other times it is running strings of notes together, some outside the chord, but always hitting notes in the chord on the important beats. You know where you need to start and end and how many beats you have to get there, so you create a line that solves the equation. I think the rhythm is the more critical element, typically written more simply to complement the melody and then more intricately during fills and transitions. Once you identify rhythms that work, experimentation finds the right notes across the chords.

I don't know how to describe what is ultimately a creative process any better. But, breaking down songs in the styles you would like to write is a great start. From Squire's catalog I would suggest looking at Heart of the Sunrise. Again a song with some riffs and some improvising. One of the ultimate examples of well composed prog rock is Thick as a Brick (the album, not the single). In that album you hear the band develop a number of rhythmic patterns that get applied in different ways throughout the album.

Hope this is of some use...

[FaithNoMan]

Bach!

[Kurisu]

Originally Posted by pocketmonster

Your original post did not make it sound like you had the learning and playing part down - hence the answer I gave.

Sorry, yah, that's my fault - I should have been more clear.

Also, to be clear: I know there's no shortcut. I'm not looking for an easy way out. I know that learning prog rock is tough. I just want to make sure I'm practicing the right things.

Creating these parts is a whole different animal. In progressive rock, you are hearing two different sorts of things in a song. Some is the product of jam sessions where whole passages are written around an idea or a riff. Other times, the song follows a more conventional chord progression and you see more of a jazz improv type of bass line.

A good song for seeing how these components fit together is Anthem. The entire beginning of the song was riff-derived, so Geddy didn't go off and write his own line; the guitar, bass, and drums were written to work together as a unit, tracking tightly all the way through the riff. Once the song moves into the verses, the bass line is written to follow the chord progression with the melody and guitar and to work with the drums to form the rhythm. Choosing the notes is really no different from jazz. Sometimes the bass is bouncing among notes in the chord, and other times it is running strings of notes together, some outside the chord, but always hitting notes in the chord on the important beats. You know where you need to start and end and how many beats you have to get there, so you create a line that solves the equation. I think the rhythm is the more critical element, typically written more simply to complement the melody and then more intricately during fills and transitions. Once you identify rhythms that work, experimentation finds the right notes across the chords.

I don't know how to describe what is ultimately a creative process any better. But, breaking down songs in the styles you would like to write is a great start. From Squire's catalog I would suggest looking at Heart of the Sunrise. Again a song with some riffs and some improvising. One of the ultimate examples of well composed prog rock is Thick as a Brick (the album, not the single). In that album you hear the band develop a number of rhythmic patterns that get applied in different ways throughout the album.

Hope this is of some use...

Thanks! That's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. I guess it does just boil down to transcribing and using your head to figure out how it's all put together. Then imitate. Then innovate. Right?

I guess Geddy and Chris must have had some serious theory training...?

So pocketmonster, what else is in your practice routine, other than transcribing?

[Kurisu]

Originally Posted by FaithNoMan

Bach!

Yep, got that one too! I love Cello Suite Prelude 1! I'm still working on it, but it has almost single handedly reminded me how to read music, after 10 years away from high school band.

[pocketmonster]

I don't have Geddy's bio memorized, but I know that Squire had musical training before becoming a bass icon. He sang in a choir in his younger days (look up his bio for more details). The music of Yes is without question more complex compared to that of Rush in terms of chords (Rush is definitely the power trio side of prog rock), but both bands use pretty complex rhythms and time signatures. Whether trained or not, both Geddy and Chris know a whole lot about music and it shows.

My own practice routine is probably not the norm. I learned a lot of other instruments before bass and have developed my musical intuition mostly from arranging music. When I want to learn something new I sit down with some instrument (piano, bass, whatever) just to learn which key(s) it is in. I then listen to it in the car for several days. I visualize the fretboard in my head and "play" most of the lines as I listen to the song. By the time I tackle it in the studio I can typically play the majority of the song by ear the first time. But, something really challenging takes time. If I start learning a couple tough tracks at 9pm, I'll look up and see it is 2am and I'm probably on my 30th pass through the tougher sections of the song. By the next night it is usually close to perfected.

If there are techniques that stretch my ability it can take a month to master something new. For instance I have been asked to play a few TSO songs on electric guitar at Christmas shows. It takes a bit to work something like that up to speed, and by the time others hear it I've already played it a hundred times in my studio. (Fun to watch jaws drop on stuff like that, but practice makes hard things easy.) I rarely use other people's transcriptions because developing critical listening skills requires doing your own. I also rarely write the transcriptions down (unless arranging for someone else) because it is time consuming. For me it's more about learning and memorizing how the song goes and how it is played as a single process.

Enough rambling, but I'm trusting that if you ask these questions the answers might be interesting...

[Kurisu]

Originally Posted by pocketmonster

Enough rambling, but I'm trusting that if you ask these questions the answers might be interesting...

Very useful. This is the kind of info I wanted to get, just other people's experiences. If you have any more info to share, please don't hold back. Thanks!

[Thunder_Fingers]

the anoying thing with learning rush songs by ear is that you always miss out something, geddy have alot of small parts, even looking at that rush tab project site you can see that they have missed out some parts when listening to the recorded version...

Geddy also have alot parts you dont "hear" at once...

[pocketmonster]

Late post to the thread, but I just got back from a trip...

I have seldom found a transcription online or even in magazines that is exactly right. You have to listen to a song forever and often at half speed to get every nuance. Nobody has that kind of time, and every transcriber eventually reaches the point of saying "close enough" or more commonly "screw it."

The good news is that if you hit all the parts that are readily "hearable" the rest doesn't matter. If I try to get every little thing - which I do now and again - it's for my own amusement because I know that no one I ever play for will listen that closely... or even know the song that well.