Proper chord notation for n00bs like me

[JimmyM]

In Zing, it resolves to an E like it's a V chord.

[HaVIC5]

Well, it typically resolves chromatically, like a diminished chord does. If it doesn't resolve chromatically, its not a diminished chord by function, so I guess your interpretation could have more weight in those instances. I'm not familiar with any other tonal resolution pattern.

Tunes with the diminished seven with a major 7 include:

Bewitched
Chega de Saudade
Corcavado
Misty (Ebdim7 is a common sub for the first chord.)
Where are you
Spain (the concierto de aranjuez introduction has a nice little reharm with a Do7 with a maj7)

If you looked through all the Real Books I'm sure you'd find plenty more diminished seventh chords with major 7s stuck on them.

[mutedeity]

So I have this voicing for that chord [C,Gb,B,Eb,A] Played in that order on my 5 string EADGC. I'm leaving it open whether I think that A is a Bbb or not at the moment, I have some thoughts on the function in the context I am talking about I will elaborate on later once I have thought about it.

I can hear an interesting resolution to Emin from that chord though. The upper voice of that chord in that voicing wants to resolve to E for the obvious reasons. Now try this, play only the three lowest tones in that voicing and you have a lydian chord (1,#4,7). It seems to me that that part of the chord chord is implying C lydian which implies that E will be the relative aeolian and therefore make the minor sound more in keeping with the rest of that chord. While the upper part of the chord is acting as a dominant that gives you the feeling of resolution when you move to E.

It's a theory anyway.

[mutedeity]

I was thinking about this a bit more and have some other considerations to add. We could take that chord two ways as well. We could take it as a dim7 chord with a added M7, or we could take it as a chord based diatonically on lydian with an altered 3rd. The 3rd is made flat to act as a leading tone in the dominant chord I mentioned above. I think in my previous post the voicing I gave probably approaches the chord as being the later. That would probably mean though that the correct way to notate that would be [C,F#,B,D#,A].

I'm still not sure about the A/Bbb in the first instance though. I can see the point Havic is making about the M7 being there for tension only but I'm not completely sold on that both of those notes act as a 7th. The argument I have is that a dim7 chord is symmetrical so the d7 is there because it makes the chord ambiguous, whereas the M7 implies where the tonic is. It's really a matter of semantics though, the chord will do what it does whether you look at the note as a M6 or d7, but it's worth thinking about.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

So I have this voicing for that chord [C,Gb,B,Eb,A] Played in that order on my 5 string EADGC. I'm leaving it open whether I think that A is a Bbb or not at the moment, I have some thoughts on the function in the context I am talking about I will elaborate on later once I have thought about it.

I can hear an interesting resolution to Emin from that chord though. The upper voice of that chord in that voicing wants to resolve to E for the obvious reasons. Now try this, play only the three lowest tones in that voicing and you have a lydian chord (1,#4,7). It seems to me that that part of the chord chord is implying C lydian which implies that E will be the relative aeolian and therefore make the minor sound more in keeping with the rest of that chord. While the upper part of the chord is acting as a dominant that gives you the feeling of resolution when you move to E.

It's a theory anyway.

If you rearrange the notes that way, however, its hard to hear it as a tonal structure unto itself. It could in fact be a B7(b9) voicing if you voice it high enough (in fourth inversion?!). The voice leading that you suggested would lead itself to this theory. The C goes to B, F# to G, B stays the same, Eb to E (or D if you're doing Em7) and A to G, the way that your run of the mill dominant chord resolves.

I was thinking about this a bit more and have some other considerations to add. We could take that chord two ways as well. We could take it as a dim7 chord with a added M7, or we could take it as a chord based diatonically on lydian with an altered 3rd. The 3rd is made flat to act as a leading tone in the dominant chord I mentioned above. I think in my previous post the voicing I gave probably approaches the chord as being the later. That would probably mean though that the correct way to notate that would be [C,F#,B,D#,A].

This would then just be another way of writing a dominant chord, in my view. It would sound weird with the C in the bass, though. I've never seen it used this way, but IN THEORY the voice leading works. It would have to go to 2nd inversion tonic chord, however, using the voice leading procedure I outlines above.

You could take this a completely different way, though, with the whole lydian b3 thing (if you're being all anal and specific like I know you love to be, it would be #9 in the TONAL sense), you could think of it as a very bizzare MODAL voicing reflecting several options. It could be reflective of the lydian #9 scale (mode 6 of the harmonic minor), which might have some tonal sense in the way we're using it as a pseduo-dominant functioning chord. OR it could be reflective of a diminished lydian mode, mode 4 of the harmonic major scale [1, 2, b3, #4, 5, 6, 7]. I think George Russell calls this the Auxiliary Diminished, but I may be wrong. If you're writing some modal music with that, then this whole diminished major 7 structure might have use, although it won't really be tertian.

I'm still not sure about the A/Bbb in the first instance though. I can see the point Havic is making about the M7 being there for tension only but I'm not completely sold on that both of those notes act as a 7th. The argument I have is that a dim7 chord is symmetrical so the d7 is there because it makes the chord ambiguous, whereas the M7 implies where the tonic is. It's really a matter of semantics though, the chord will do what it does whether you look at the note as a M6 or d7, but it's worth thinking about.

Yeah, that's why I try and think of it as the "major 15" versus the major 7. The root of the diminished chord DOES matter, though, for voice leading purposes. The chord progression Cmaj7 Ebo7 Dmin7 G7 wouldn't sound the same way if you substituted the Eb for a Gbdim7 would it?

The thing with the diminished scale being symmetric works with its tensions, too. A diminished chord using octatonic diatonicism will have a tension natural 9, natural 11, b13 and major 7. All of these tensions form a SECOND diminished chord unto themselves. Bill Evans LOVED to exploit this aspect of diminished harmony, a great florish he loved to do was play a diminished arpeggio with one hand, and a diminished arppegio separated by a whole tone (or fourth, or minor 6th, or major 7th) with the other hand. CRAZY stuff there.

[E2daGGurl]

This discussion is so helpful to me - thanks a lot. I'm realizing one of my problems is to stop thinking like a keyboard player (a lifetime of that) and start thinking like a bass player. The part about the second diminished chord/tensions inside octatonic diminished chords is fascinating. Really helps me hear differently.

[Scot]

My advice to the OP is to become very comfortable reading all types of chord notation so you're not confused or thrown when encountering them in the field. I wouldn't get too caught up in the "proper" way to notate chords. If you come across something that is unclear or just plain ol' incorrect, you can usually figure it out by analyzing the progression or by hearing it played by the piano player, etc. Stick to the root and other notes that are a sure thing and listen and you should be able to hear it. Ask if absolutely necessary but do not correct anyone if you want to keep the gig. For your own notating purposes, pick whichever style of chord notation you prefer but just be consistent throughout.

[E2daGGurl]

Thanks, Scot. That's what I'm realizing. I am just now really getting chord synonyms, so to speak. I am also trying very hard never to correct anyone - that's very good advice. When I use written music, I mainly play off jazz charts - and they are arranged by a wide variety of people, including some "amateurs" (music is still really good). I want to both understand the charts and understand the mechanics.