PROS & CONS OF Reading Vs. Improvisation on the Electric Bass

[carl h.]

Originally Posted by interp

Not necessarily true. My mother, a pianist, is 86 years old, has been playing for 80 years, and can flawlessly sight read virtually any piece of music you put in front of her. She has zero ability to improvise. When I asked her what are the three notes in a major triad in the key of C, she had no idea what I was talking about.

The best sightreaders out there can fake what they can't read (various reasons - tempo, accidentals..) so well that you think they are reading everything perfectly. Some things just can't be read at speed and need a moment to take in all the information on the page. This is where improvisation kicks in - they know what should be happening and play something which meets the expectation, even if it isn't what is on the page.

" what are the three notes in a major triad in the key of C"

I haven't the faintest idea how to answer this either. It's sort of like "how long is a piece of string?" You're missing some crucial data here.

[BASSPLAYERS4HIM]

Originally Posted by dvh

The ability to read means you are that much more musically informed and can therefore improvise with that much more knowledge and awareness...

I agree with you!

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by thudfromafar

It's still a useful skill to learn, and theres not much downside to learning how to read except that it takes a -little- bit of time and effort, and most bass players wont get into situations where they'll need it.

Because they can't do it.

I've been in a local symphiony orchestra, played jazz for 6-7 years, currently in a prog band, have played bluegrass, blues, and metal.

Reading is important.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by BASSPLAYERS4HIM

What about the jazz players...don't they start through a classical pattern that requires reading then?

Thanks
Pm

As a former trained orchestral player ( they frowned apon the term classical, and i have not played orchestral for about 30 years) my training was about being a reader, no improv just read what is in front of me.
They sort of train free thinking out of you in a way, so you just play exactly what is put in front of you. Sure you can ask questions about the piece, but what we had was very fast rehearsals with multiple pieces and multiple members ( sometimes up to 90 +) because no one was coming up with ideas about how they saw it played.
It took me a good few years to lose this mind set and part of it was just playing with players that asked for my opinion on how a part showed be played, and strangely by working with players and artists that could not read.
So if they cannot come to my level i can certainly come to theirs so i have to interprete and make up the part rather than just read it.

But in a studio, pit or orchestral situation reading was the number one skill, and the best way to develop it is to use it and just read, the best way to lose it is to neglect it.

Reading is not the real skill outside this area, it is what you read and what you do with it. Content is everything...in all forms of learning.
Someone mentioned earlier the comparison of learning to read words as it open up education via books etc.
Well for a lot of people i know reading is for TV guides and mags, so no educational value in their learning to read.

And if anyone quotes the "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for life" remember that in reality if you teach a man to fish he will sit in a boat with a six pack and bulls@@t all day.

Some players say they practice everyday but never seem to improve. The reason for this, in the players i encounter, is that they practice what they already know....they ingrain to the degree of a mental block or a feeling of dis-satisfaction in their playing, because they always practice or fall back on what they already know, they fail to learn something new, so they have nothing new to practice.

Again this is why a good teacher is worth their weight because they should keep the information flowing so keep you learning whether it be by ear, reading, performance, transcribing, scales, chords etc..the idea is to move on and keep the habit of learning....or to re learn it.

[One Bad Monkey]

Originally Posted by carl h.

The best sightreaders out there can fake what they can't read (various reasons - tempo, accidentals..) so well that you think they are reading everything perfectly. Some things just can't be read at speed and need a moment to take in all the information on the page. This is where improvisation kicks in - they know what should be happening and play something which meets the expectation, even if it isn't what is on the page.

I get this a lot. As a theatre musician, being able to jump a couple of measures if someone forgot a cue or a verse (yeah, a whole verse) and have it sound fine is important, so improv to some extent is needed in this area, where reading is prominent.

Conversely, when I'd play jazz gigs with just a Real Book in front of me, knowing how to read the melody in front of me so I could double it with the lead player was a bonus in addition to just playing through the changes. So for me, reading was a useful skill in an area where improv was the norm.

Both are infinitely useful, especially when used together.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by BASSPLAYERS4HIM

This is a Great and Good explanation.

Thanks.

I have noticed and have friends who are Good readers, but lack and have difficulties when it comes to improvising...
I wonder and ask myself How and Why is this Possible?

Please reply back. Thanks

Some folks can reproduce music they read. After all the analysis in school is done, Beethoven heard music in his head or heart and used his brain and hand to transcribe it.

Music is heard, felt and enjoyed. Some folks call this the left side of the brain. Music is written, read and played extremely proficiently. This is the right side of the brain.

Two different things. It's nice to have a balance.

[chadds]

What people do and what people think aren't good measures for this query.

I know a world famous first chair violinist. He said, " I spend all day trying to make four notes sound right".

He asked me, "Do you play Jazz?"
I said yes. He said, "Then you would have enjoyed this experience. I was with my friends Stephen and Jean Luc in a hotel room and they were just tearing up playing. I couldn't."
I said, "Wait a minute! You're in a hotel room with your friends? Your friends are Stephan Grappelli and Jean Luc Ponty?!!!!!"

[sammyp]

your questions are a bit odd IMO ...not to be a wise guy....they're awfully broad ....the history of bass improv is a big big topic and kind of uneccessary when you state the work that you're interested in - churches, bars, etc

there are no cons to reading and/or being able to improv but the type of gigs you listed generally calls for neither ...it calls for a solid bass player with good tone who learns lot's of songs and learns them well.

[VanillaThundah]

Originally Posted by BASSPLAYERS4HIM

2-How Meaningful is: READING on the Electric Bass?

3-PROS & CONS. of Reading Vs. Improvisation on the Electric Bass.?

4) For Bass player musicians that play & perform and do this for a living...at clubs, concerts, restaurants, churches.....etc...
How Sensitive & Important do you consider these two Factors mentioned....

DISCLAIMER: Not a "pro" or "music teacher"

If you have not already seen it, I would check out Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop DVD. It's not a "more of the same" tips and tricks video to help you sound good when you solo, it's a VERY down-to-earth and fundamental look at what makes a decent bassist become a phenomenal bassist. You'd have to see the video to understand the statement, but too many people are (and they are now) arguing about something besides elements 2 through 10.

On the subject of whether to learn to read or not, I think everyone should be able to at least READ sheet music. There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this, but I find sight-reading to be much more useful in the studio than live. The reason for this is musical element 10 in Victor's workshop video. I would check it out with an open mind, it really filled in a lot of gaps for me in my understanding of music.

[BASSPLAYERS4HIM]

Originally Posted by sammyp

your questions are a bit odd IMO ...not to be a wise guy....they're awfully broad ....the history of bass improv is a big big topic and kind of uneccessary when you state the work that you're interested in - churches, bars, etc

there are no cons to reading and/or being able to improv but the type of gigs you listed generally calls for neither ...it calls for a solid bass player with good tone who learns lot's of songs and learns them well.

Hi, friend
Thanks for your comments .....they ARE ....very well welcome!
Two questions 4U.?

Do you read music?

Do you Improvise?
Then! What is your Intake then ?
Bring it on ....!
We want to hear it.
Thanks friend.

[BASSPLAYERS4HIM]

Originally Posted by VanillaThundah

DISCLAIMER: Not a "pro" or "music teacher"

If you have not already seen it, I would check out Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop DVD. It's not a "more of the same" tips and tricks video to help you sound good when you solo, it's a VERY down-to-earth and fundamental look at what makes a decent bassist become a phenomenal bassist. You'd have to see the video to understand the statement, but too many people are (and they are now) arguing about something besides elements 2 through 10.

On the subject of whether to learn to read or not, I think everyone should be able to at least READ sheet music. There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this, but I find sight-reading to be much more useful in the studio than live. The reason for this is musical element 10 in Victor's workshop video. I would check it out with an open mind, it really filled in a lot of gaps for me in my understanding of music.

Thanks for your comment.
I shall so.

[dmusic148]

Reading is fundamental. Wish I did it. I can read Real Book changes just fine.
There's a steady Big Band gig near me that I've done-real gigs, Irving plaza, Lincoln center etc. I quit the gig years ago and the leader still bugs me to take it, because I can swing and I guess I'm a cool hang. I quit because of the stress of trying to hear/ play the melodic parts, the start/ stops, big hits etc. all by ear, the instant that it happens. Too stressful. Its the ONLY gig I've ever had to read on, and I have (apparently) good ears, so, I haven't learned. I can 'read;' I can clumsily identify the notes and somehow I do pretty well with the time stuff (years of piano as a kid???).
But man, if I could read well I would definitely have more gigs, and life would be better.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

As a former trained orchestral player ( they frowned apon the term classical, and i have not played orchestral for about 30 years) my training was about being a reader, no improv just read what is in front of me.
They sort of train free thinking out of you in a way, so you just play exactly what is put in front of you. Sure you can ask questions about the piece, but what we had was very fast rehearsals with multiple pieces and multiple members ( sometimes up to 90 +) because no one was coming up with ideas about how they saw it played.
It took me a good few years to lose this mind set and part of it was just playing with players that asked for my opinion on how a part showed be played, and strangely by working with players and artists that could not read.
So if they cannot come to my level i can certainly come to theirs so i have to interprete and make up the part rather than just read it.

But in a studio, pit or orchestral situation reading was the number one skill, and the best way to develop it is to use it and just read, the best way to lose it is to neglect it.

Reading is not the real skill outside this area, it is what you read and what you do with it. Content is everything...in all forms of learning.
Someone mentioned earlier the comparison of learning to read words as it open up education via books etc.
Well for a lot of people i know reading is for TV guides and mags, so no educational value in their learning to read.

And if anyone quotes the "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for life" remember that in reality if you teach a man to fish he will sit in a boat with a six pack and bulls@@t all day.

Some players say they practice everyday but never seem to improve. The reason for this, in the players i encounter, is that they practice what they already know....they ingrain to the degree of a mental block or a feeling of dis-satisfaction in their playing, because they always practice or fall back on what they already know, they fail to learn something new, so they have nothing new to practice.

Again this is why a good teacher is worth their weight because they should keep the information flowing so keep you learning whether it be by ear, reading, performance, transcribing, scales, chords etc..the idea is to move on and keep the habit of learning....or to re learn it.

A very good post, Fergie.

By golly, I know what you mean about the mentality of the classical...er, orchestral...scene. I miss playing orchestrally, especially some of the pieces I got to play. But, you're right in that it is monarchy. The Thing is to see how well you can reproduce what is written. But, beyond just getting the notes and rhythms right, the gig goes further to become a challenge to see how well you can also articulate what is written. You must also express it properly. The good news, however, is that when everyone is giving it their all in the same ways, there can come a time when the experience nearly becomes transcendental. That is a sweet feeling. It's the same thing that happens on any bandstand with any group of musicians, but it is particlarly astounding when with a full orchestra in a full house. Lord, yes! One of those moments came to me one night as we were performing Carmina Burana (spelling, I forget). A full orchestra in the pit, a full ballet onstage with a full chorus dressed in cowls lining the bachground all the way around, everyone pounding away at their craft all together. It was like being imbedded within a force of nature. Mercy me.

And yet, once I asked my advisor in college to play some improv on his harpsichord, but he said he didn't know how. Unbelievable. One of my grandmothers was a skilled pianist, classically trained, and could read like crazy. But, she could not sit down and make up tunes like I could when I was only eight-years-old. She certainly couldn't have taught herself to play. My other grandmother was just the opposite. She could sit all day and pick out anything she heard on the radio, but could not read a note.

Folks are somehow vastly different.

[notverygood]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Because they can't do it.

I've been in a local symphiony orchestra, played jazz for 6-7 years, currently in a prog band, have played bluegrass, blues, and metal.

Reading is important.

Or maybe they just don't want to play jazz and orchestra. IMO I'd rather be good at improv then good at sight reading. However, if I enjoyed jazz and/or wanted to play in an orchestra it would be the other way around.

[KingRazor]

I can read.

I can't improvise.

I'd rather that was reversed. I've never encountered a situation where knowing how to read did me any good, but would have loved to have been able to improvise.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

I can read.

I can't improvise.

I'd rather that was reversed. I've never encountered a situation where knowing how to read did me any good, but would have loved to have been able to improvise.

As i said for me it was about meeting and playing with players that just used their ear. I was about 19 at the time and started to get the hang of it when i was about 30, so 11 years in all just to get familiar with my own skills in this. Again it was about taking a leap or faith and just playing...mistakes and all. That as i see it now looking back was the key...making mistakes.
As orchestral players we are taught not to make mistakes, that is why we read. But in learning to play outside yourself you have to make mistakes so you can push your bounderies.
In orchestral music at individual practice when i made a mistake, i was stopped, taken back to the beginning and made to start again.
That was a flawed way to learn, all that does is make the task not so much about playing, but not making mistakes. This is what i learned not to care about, so it freed me to play with no care.
When i teach now i take no notice of mistakes so long as the player knows it was a mistake. They will sort it out in time by getting playing experience, not practice experience.

Over time i worked out what would and would not work, and what works and does not work in certain musical situations.
Bring back into this my orchestral training and i could also hear what could be in all this if others played certain parts, but as they could not read then i had to learn to cox them into it. Because they could not imagine what i was hearing a lot of ideas fell to the wayside.
I sometimes wished they could have just read the ideas and then they would have seen that it could be done.
Catch -22 the points in this thread, it is but it depends on what side of the Catch -22 you are...as said by so many, personal experience is everything.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by interp

Not necessarily true. My mother, a pianist, is 86 years old, has been playing for 80 years, and can flawlessly sight read virtually any piece of music you put in front of her. She has zero ability to improvise. When I asked her what are the three notes in a major triad in the key of C, she had no idea what I was talking about.

She can't improvise because she's never learned to improvise. The fact that she has excellent reading skills has nothing to do with the fact that she can't improvise. As others have said, these are not mutually exclusive skills. If practiced togeather, one can help the other, but EACH has to be practiced.

[BASSPLAYERS4HIM]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Reading is fundamental. Wish I did it. I can read Real Book changes just fine.
There's a steady Big Band gig near me that I've done-real gigs, Irving plaza, Lincoln center etc. I quit the gig years ago and the leader still bugs me to take it, because I can swing and I guess I'm a cool hang. I quit because of the stress of trying to hear/ play the melodic parts, the start/ stops, big hits etc. all by ear, the instant that it happens. Too stressful. Its the ONLY gig I've ever had to read on, and I have (apparently) good ears, so, I haven't learned. I can 'read;' I can clumsily identify the notes and somehow I do pretty well with the time stuff (years of piano as a kid???).
But man, if I could read well I would definitely have more gigs, and life would be better.

Have faith in YOU!

[BASSPLAYERS4HIM]

Originally Posted by Russell L

A very good post, Fergie.

By golly, I know what you mean about the mentality of the classical...er, orchestral...scene. I miss playing orchestrally, especially some of the pieces I got to play. But, you're right in that it is monarchy. The Thing is to see how well you can reproduce what is written. But, beyond just getting the notes and rhythms right, the gig goes further to become a challenge to see how well you can also articulate what is written. You must also express it properly. The good news, however, is that when everyone is giving it their all in the same ways, there can come a time when the experience nearly becomes transcendental. That is a sweet feeling. It's the same thing that happens on any bandstand with any group of musicians, but it is particlarly astounding when with a full orchestra in a full house. Lord, yes! One of those moments came to me one night as we were performing Carmina Burana (spelling, I forget). A full orchestra in the pit, a full ballet onstage with a full chorus dressed in cowls lining the bachground all the way around, everyone pounding away at their craft all together. It was like being imbedded within a force of nature. Mercy me.

And yet, once I asked my advisor in college to play some improv on his harpsichord, but he said he didn't know how. Unbelievable. One of my grandmothers was a skilled pianist, classically trained, and could read like crazy. But, she could not sit down and make up tunes like I could when I was only eight-years-old. She certainly couldn't have taught herself to play. My other grandmother was just the opposite. She could sit all day and pick out anything she heard on the radio, but could not read a note.

Folks are somehow vastly different.

Great Comment!

[fdeck]

False dichotomy. Reading and improvisation are not the only two options. Also, there are different forms of improvisation. It would be good to think about the following as "tools" for playing the bass, that you can use in practically any desired combination:

* Basic reading
* Sight-reading
* Learning tunes by ear
* Memorization
* Improvising bass lines
* Melodic improvisation

I don't think there are "cons" to any of these. I can do all of them except reading tabs. Not all genres of music call for reading or improvisation. Most electric bassists who can improvise melodically are also good readers and got their start on some other instrument.

In my view, if you count upright players, then there are already plenty of bassists who can read. We'll take care of the reading gigs.

@Fergie, it's interesting what you say about orchestral instruction. I think it's different today. My kids are taking string lessons, and they learned to play by ear before they started reading. Both of them are still quite good at picking things up by ear and playing them. They are also being exposed to things like fiddle music and jazz.