Puttin' it all together-Theory,modes,playing

JOE_MARSH · #1 10-08-2009, 07:58 AM

Ok guys...Ive been playing bass for twelve years....Things got interesting recently when I discovered Modes! I just started learning theory..Im no newbie by any means as I have some experience, but the videos Ive been watching on Youtube are just not doing me justice

Ok..the real meat and potatoes is that I need to advance...Im not at a wall by any means..Ive started to understand Modes and how to use them, but I guess Im really just trying to put it all together...I need some help guys...I need examples!!!

Im trying to learn how to improvise and really play more MELODICALLY.... I can pretty much here a groove, and start to play..and then after about 15 minutes, have a pretty nasty bass line to go with it,

I would love some examples of a chord structure-and then a bass line, and then explained why this works the way it does..
The only videos that have peaked my curiosity is the Bunny Brunel bass school stuff.. He really brakes a lot of info down

This is my first post here on Talk Bass
Any help Guys!???

JTE · #2 10-08-2009, 08:49 AM

Well, my take is this. Do a lot of it on your own. For example, transcribe the bass line to "Badge", and look at the chords. Dig how Jack outlines the Amin chord with the opening arpeggio, how he plays roots, how the descending bit is an Emin scale.

To play melodically, play melodies instead of bass lines. The real deal is this- record a chord progression. Then SING a melodic solo over it while your bass is safely locked away in its case. Record that solo you're singing^*. Then and only then, get your bass out and learn to play exactly what you sang. That gets the music to be the guide rather than where your fingers are comfortable going.

Do the same with other melodic ideas. Frankly, avoid most bass players and guitar players for this part of your tuition. Cop ideas from horn players, singers, harmonica players- they all have to breath and that affects the phrasing. Cop ideas from how Frank Sinatra phrases, how Aretha does, and Miles, and Louis Armstrong, and Renee Fleming, and Toot Thielmann, etc.

^* Don't worry about your singing voice. The idea is to get the ideas to come from the inner voice of music in you. So even if you sing like I do (once described as "a duet with Yoko Ono and Linda McCartney"), don't worry about it. Just sing the music you hear in your head and then FIND that exact music on the bass.

John

bassandbeyond · #3 10-08-2009, 10:49 AM

+1 to what John said. Following your "inner voice" is a great way to practice, and you might be surprised by what comes out of you that way.

MalcolmAmos · #4 10-08-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOE_MARSH

This is my first post here on Talk Bass. Any help Guys!???

Welcome, perhaps this may help.

Modes and how to use them:

First there are relative modes - the key changes and the notes stay the same. Most people relate to this method.

Second there are paralell modes aka pitch axis - the key stays the same and the notes change. I feel this has the most to offer and is simpler to understand how to use, for example:

The major modes, Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian are based upon the major scale with one note changed.
Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 aka the major scale
Lydian = 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7

Ionian gives an attractive happy up beat mood.
If you sharp the 4th you get Lydian which gives a dreamy mood.
If you flat the 7th you get Mixolydian which gives a Latin mood and is used over dominant 7th chords as in a blues progression.

Change one note and get the mood you want.

The minor modes - are based upon the natural minor scale and by changing one note you get:
Aeolian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 aka the natural minor scale
Dorian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Phrygian - 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7

If you change the 6th to a natural note you get Dorian an attractive minor mood. Used a lot in jazz.
If you flat the 2nd you get Phrygian which gives an Exotic - Spanish mood. Used a lot in Metal.

Change one note and you get the mood you want.

When I understood that - modes became something I could use comfortably. Next thing to pull modes into perspective is what chords are to be used under which mode. And that brings us to your question on what baseline. Still a newbie on bass, but, modal theory will dictate you accent the different note so in your baseline riff the natural 6th would have to be in the baseline for a Dorian bass riff, or the b7 should be in the riff for a Mixolydian baseline.

Can not get around that melodic phrase thing, running the mode notes in order is going to sound like a mode exercise. So for your melodic solo use what has been mentioned in the other posts and for writing your baseline include the different note in your riff. Your melodic solo should also accent the different note to give the mode mood.

Yes, I omitted Locrian, how often do you play over a diminished chord progression? If you do flat the 2nd and 5th.

Here is a little more on pitch axis - http://satriani.worldsgreatestguitar...xis/index.html Notice Satriani uses it, if it's good enough for Satriani good enough for me.

One more thing - modes lend themselves to a modal vamp. Modal vamps sustain the modal mood. Chord progressions point to the tonic or tonal center - that may or may not sustain the modal mood you are wanting, i.e. modes do a great job of setting a mood. The major and natural minor scale have written many a tune.

Have fun.

JOE_MARSH · #5 10-09-2009, 05:41 AM

BassandBeyond!! This is what I am looking for... As silly as this sounds...I actually have been watching as much of the Joe satriani stuff i can get my eyes on!! Its wierd..I have started to study other instruments to figure out what i would play on my bass...Now originally...at the age of 8...my parents hooked me on playing cello...so I have a musical background...just a lot of stuff didnt start making sense until now

In terms of notes and what to use...Basically Im starting to understand now...certain modes, still in context of parallel or relative, use certain *Key* notes in each scale...those key notes are not the actual Key you are playing in,BUT as a key note within the mode/scale that determine the sound aspect of it...Not to be confused with the Tonal Key of the scale/mode

Does this sound right guys?

JOE_MARSH · #6 10-09-2009, 05:49 AM

First there are relative modes - the key changes and the notes stay the same. Most people relate to this method.

Second there are paralell modes aka pitch axis - the key stays the same and the notes change.

THIS IS WHATS UP..no one ever really explains it...but its really so simple!

JTE · #7 10-09-2009, 09:17 AM

Ignore modes if you don't know how the chords come out of the scales. For a lot of music, thinking modally only obfuscates thngs. So, when you learn modes, don't learn C Ionian, D Dorian, etc. That's just shifting the scale and doesn't teach you much if anything about them. Why practice modes? Well, I don't think you should practice them. At least not until you understand basic harmony.

I. Do you know the major scale- that is-
A. You know the whole-step and half-step formula for making a major scale
B. You know how to figure out the notes in any major key, using the correct enharmonics
C. You know what it sounds like- you know what the next note will sound like before you play it
D. You can find it and play it over two octaves ascending and descending in any key

II. Do you know how to build the basic chords- that is, you KNOW
A. A major chord is 1 3 5
B. A minor chord is 1 b3 5
C. A 7th chord is 1 3 5 b7
D. A minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7
E. A major 7 is 1 3 5 7
F. A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7 (and you understand why it's called the bb7, not the 6)
G. An augmented chord is 1 3 #5

III. You understand and know the chords that come from the scale when you harmonize it- that is you KNOW not only that the chords are:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min7
vii min7 b5 (or half-diminished)
BUT, you know WHY!!!

IV. You can work out how to play the arpeggio over two octaves ascending and descending the chords in any key. You don't have to memorize them (heck, I hate memorization), but you can figure them out and they make sense.

V. You know how a ii V I defines a key center

Then you can start learning and practicing modes. But when you do, do them all from one tonic. Don't learn C Ionian then D Dorian, etc. You have to OWN the differences between them for them to be of any use. And frankly, the way most people explain modes, is stupid and pointless.

If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chords DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first.

Now, if you're playing strictly modal stuff, you need to understand the mode just like I say you should know the major scale (see #I up above). If you don't know all that stuff about Lydian, you don't know the mode at all; you're just wiggling your fingers.

From an earlier post way back in May (which is based on an edited version of someone else' post)

Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.
3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play under various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"
85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you undertand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.

JOE_MARSH · #8 10-09-2009, 09:27 AM

AHGGGG JTE ..thanks..this is getting to the point I need!!!

JOE_MARSH · #9 10-09-2009, 11:41 AM

JTE...Ive been re-reading your post..and I want to ASK...what would you play over the chords that you listed in your paragraph...

"If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chords DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first."

Cmaj-G is the perfect 5th of Cmaj
Ddim7 is a dark sounding chord
G7

Would you just solo over C Major ( this doesnt seem right)

C major section into D locrian(since its a Diminshed D7 chord) into G walk down back in C major ((this seems like it might be closer except the dim. section...))

Im trying to grasp the bigger picture guys!! So go easy on me

IM a total NEWBIE to theory but im trying to get it!

JTE · #10 10-09-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOE_MARSH

JTE...Ive been re-reading your post..and I want to ASK...what would you play over the chords that you listed in your paragraph...

"If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chords DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first."

Cmaj-G is the perfect 5th of Cmaj
Ddim7 is a dark sounding chord
G7

Would you just solo over C Major ( this doesnt seem right)

C major section into D locrian(since its a Diminshed D7 chord) into G walk down back in C major ((this seems like it might be closer except the dim. section...))

Im trying to grasp the bigger picture guys!! So go easy on me

IM a total NEWBIE to theory but im trying to get it!

Yep, I'd be thinking of the C major scale as my template. But the key is I'm thinking chord tones, not scales. Especially for soloing, there's a LOT of choices beyond the scale and the chord, but you need target notes to bring you home. I find them in the chord tones, and by thinking of extensions above the chord. The key here is that those three chords DEFINE the key of C.

Look at the notes in the chords, and listen to how that progression falls. Do this little exercise for yourself- write out the notes of the Cmaj chord, the Dmin7, and G7. Then look at them together. Look for how they go together. Compare them to the notes of the C major scale. That'll open up a lot of the "mysteries" there.

Like I said, thinking C Ionian, D Dorian, and G Mixolydian will get you to the same notes, but it's the mental shifting of gears for each chord which I take issue with. Those three chords ARE the key of C and there's no reason to shift gears instead of trying to tie them together.

Look, the bassist's job is two fold- to connect the rhythm (generally drums in most modern popular music) with the harmony and the melody, and to DEFINE the harmony. So, bass players gotta OWN the harmony. Looking at each chord in isolation does not lead one to the overall harmony so the first place to look is how you can tie them together.

John

JOE_MARSH · #11 10-09-2009, 01:31 PM

Its funny... I orignally thought that C maj was the answer you were looking for...BUT it looked too simple..I see what you mean with how the progression defines the KEY

I recently bought Ear Master 5.0- and ive been doing a lot of ear training...at first, I started doing all my training with the bass as my main tone instrument within the program..but then I got to thinkin...HEY, I dont play with other bas players...I play with other guitarist's! So I switched to the guitar section of the program....Really helps me realize and HEAR what each and every chord sounds like, within that...I go to my bass and put it together

JTE · #12 10-09-2009, 01:36 PM

BTW, your post (#9) mentions Ddim7 (diminished) but the examples are Dmin7 (D minor 7). That A natural is key...

John

Richard Lindsey · #13 10-09-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOE_MARSH

JTE...Ive been re-reading your post..and I want to ASK...what would you play over the chords that you listed in your paragraph...

"If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chords DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first."

Cmaj-G is the perfect 5th of Cmaj
Ddim7 is a dark sounding chord
G7

Would you just solo over C Major ( this doesnt seem right)

C major section into D locrian(since its a Diminshed D7 chord) into G walk down back in C major ((this seems like it might be closer except the dim. section...))

Im trying to grasp the bigger picture guys!! So go easy on me

IM a total NEWBIE to theory but im trying to get it!

I agree with JTE, who has once again explained this well. For another way of looking at it ... this may sound like a bizarre analogy, but bear with me.

Think of a key, like C major, as a house you live in that has different rooms. When you go from one room to another (i.e., go from one chord to another), you haven't gone to a different dwelling, you're moving around within the same dwelling. So when you sit and have a beer or whatever in the kitchen, you don't think that the kitchen is the whole world, you know it's just one room in the house as a whole.

Now, just because you are in, say, C major, that doesn't mean that you can solo or play just by noodling around in C. The equivalent, in my dumb analogy, would be to assume that just because you're living in this house, you can do any activity in any room of that house. Generally, you don't do this. You mostly don't work on your car in your wife's hobby room, you don't barbecue in the living room, and you don't do your bathroom business in the kitchen. You have some specificity about what you do and where you do it, when you're thinking about tasks you do in different areas of your house, and the same is true for different areas of a key. (I'm well aware it gets more complicated than this.)

So when you play through harmony in a key, you don't just do anything anywhere, you select specific things from what's available to do something that's appropriate for where you happen to be. If it's dinnertime, you go to the kitchen; if it's woodshop time, you work in the garage; and so forth. In JTE's terms, when you're playing under a chord, you work first with the chord tones. There are all sorts of extrapolations from this (who among us has not gotten busy in an "inappropriate" place, for example?), but that's a good place to start.

I dunno, did that help? I'm not trying to put you down, just trying to inject a (very) little levity.

tZer · #14 10-09-2009, 01:54 PM

Learning the modes can help you sound 'right' when you use them. In other words, you will hit notes that are in the key/chord. So it makes sounding 'right' easy.

Problem is, 'right', while it's safe, tends to be boring. It's the 'blue' notes and the 'wrong' ones that bring interest to riffing a soloing. Hitting notes that aren't 'right' opens doors that you'd never find if you strictly adhered to the modes.

Now you certainly don't want to fill your solos with lots of 'wrong' notes as a rule - but after you get a handle on your modes and start seeing how you can apply them, remember to purposefully detach from them and let you 'inner voice' (like JTE suggested) be your primary guide. I use them to get back on track if I'm feeling particularly expressionless, but just as quickly I forget about them when my 'inner voice' is in good voice.

The modes will keep you safe and help you not play notes that are out of place - but they aren't necessarily the key to playing interesting solos. Modes are very logical/rational structures. Solos should express emotion and emotion is inherently illogical and irrational.

bassandbeyond · #15 10-09-2009, 05:59 PM

For the most part, I agree with others who question the musicality of improvising based solely on chord/mode formulas.

However, one thing I will say in defense of modes: they are useful for simply learning your fingerboard thoroughly. Even disregarding the subject of modal improvisation, knowing your modes in all positions will definitely help your sightreading proficiency in all keys, and that in itself I think is a very worthwhile goal.