Question About "Blue" Note

[avenger7326]

I was originally going to post a question asking how a bassline can be in say A major and the melody be in A minor but realized if you added a blue note to the mix (in this case a C) it allows you to play in either major or minor in the the same key. Just wanna make sure my thinking is correct. Any corrections or additions to my new found enlightenment is welcome.

[bigblondeafro87]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 'blue note' is a flat 5?

But to answer your question, play whatever sounds good to you. This could sound fine if you put the notes in a good spot.

[Staccato]

Passing note is between two chordal notes. Check these references in bold-first is flat 5 and then, passing tones.

[DudeistMonk]

I think blue note specifically refers to the augmented 4th/diminished 5th in the blues scale, although I'm not positive on that. Passing tone/accidental might be the better term.

If the rhythm guitarist is laying out an A(A,C#,E) chord then the bass might use the minor 3rd(C) as a passing tone but probably wouldn't hang on it, like he would the major 3rd(C#).

So this would work under Amajor
G------------------------
D------------------------
A---0-0--------0-0---3-4
E---------0-0------------

or
G------------------------
D------------------------
A---0-0--------0-0---4-4
E---------0-0------------

but not
G------------------------
D------------------------
A---0-0--------0-0---3-3
E---------0-0------------

Usually nobody will hang on a note that's only a half step away from a note in the chord being played.

If the guitarist was playing an Aminor instead you would reverse my above example. As for the melody is gonna be floating above everything with lots of accidentals and the like, but you probably wont see a major 3rd over a Cmin on the first note of a bar or being held out without some sort of logic in mind.

Learn chord progressions when you learn songs, try to stick with them for finding your important notes and use everything else with more scarcity to lead lines into each other, to come in after a rest, to make a line more busy....

[Jazz Ad]

You're applying diatonic reasoning to pentatonic scales. This is why you get confused.

[dalconthenovice]

in A minor C is already in key and is in no way the blue note

if your in A major C isn't the "blue note" it is infact the flat 3rd

unless i'm completely wrong, but i'm pretty sure i'm not


EDIT: that was a big ig'nant of me and i apologize

looks like i was completely wrong

[JimK]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

You're applying diatonic reasoning to pentatonic scales. This is why you get confused.

Exactly.
A Blue Note is usually the flatted 3rd, 5th or 7th.

Slaves brought to America were not permitted to keep their sacred drums, etc.
Singing was a release, so...
Blue Notes were sung in Work Songs by American slaves...this slightly 'out-of-tune' dissonance gave birth to much of what we're listening to now.

On a tangent-
Slaves brought into the Carribean were allowed to keep their drums, etc. That paved the way for Afro-Cuban music, etc...very percussive-oriented music vs. American Blues/Jazz.

[JimK]

Originally Posted by dalconthenovice

if your in A major C isn't the "blue note" it is infact the flat 3rd

unless i'm completely wrong, but i'm pretty sure i'm not

I dunno...I've played many a Blues/R&B bass groove/figure using A-C-G over/against/under a guitarist playing A7, etc.
Again, not technically correct...but we're talking Blues ("wrong" notes were for effect/nuance & possibly a rebellion against the European major scale).

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by avenger7326

.......it allows you to play in either major or minor in the the same key. Just wanna make sure my thinking is correct. Any corrections or additions to my new found enlightenment is welcome.

The reason, as I understand it, deals with the Pitch Axis concept of staying in the same key not necessarily with the blue note.

As each key has three major chords, three minor chords and one diminished chord --- each key has major and minor properties - three major and three minor chords --- so as long as you stay in the same key help yourself to those major or minor notes and chords as you see fit.

Video of Satriani using Pitch Axis - droning E and using both E Ionian and E Dorian. Notice he is not walking the key. The key stays the same and the notes change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQol...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SckVz3XpLs

Google "Pitch Axis" I think that will help your "new found enlightenment" more than relying upon the blue note being the answer.

After Pitch Axis entered my life I never went back to relative modes where the key changes and the notes stay the same. Pitch Axis or Parallel modes allow you to find ways to use them within songs much easier.

Chord tones, pitch axis and the bass -- R-3-#4-8 = a Lydian riff while the lead instrument is doing his thing with the notes of the Lydian mode. R-b3-6-b7 Dorian riff, R-b2-b6-b7 Phrygian riff. Notice the characteristic note in the riff.

Have fun.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

The key stays the same and the notes change.

.

I think you have a misconception here. if the notes change, the key cannot stay the same, by definition. I think what you're talking about is having the same tonic/key note, or tonal center. But that is NOT the same thing as being in the same key. A key requires 2 things: (1) a tonic note AND (2) a specific set of notes (and therefore chords) going with it.

Therefore, E minor is not the same key as E major (or for that matter E dorian, E lydian, or whatever), even though they share the same key note.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by JimK

Exactly.
A Blue Note is usually the flatted 3rd, 5th or 7th.

This. Some say that this isn't exactly what these notes are, since they originate in non-Western (African) scales, but these are the closest approximation. You'll notice, for example, that the "flat 3rd," when sung, may be a bit sharper than the version on our fingerboard. But you don't have the option of doing that on, say, a piano. In any case, since blues has been a part of Western music for over a century now, it's probably accommodated itself to the surrounding context to some extent, so for many or most purposes b3, b5, and b7 are considered close enough.

I wouldn't say that these blue notes were necessarily out of tune. They come originally from a different tradition that was grafted onto Western music to yield the blues we know now, and they might have been (probably were) considered perfectly in tune within that tradition.

[MalcolmAmos]

Richard I bow to your technical ability, however, do a Google on pitch axis. Then come back and we will discuss this some more.

[somegeezer]

You could play a Blues scale over major. That's just Minor Pentatonic with a flattened 5th added... But you can always play Minor over Major anyways. Might not sound good to people used to Pop music, but it's great for experimenting with.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Richard I bow to your technical ability, however, do a Google on pitch axis. Then come back and we will discuss this some more.

I know what pitch axis is. The point remains, though, that when you do this, you are NOT remaining in the same key. You are retaining the same tonal center/key note. That isn't the same thing.

[PlanetEarth]

There's a million ways you can make this note *in-key* on paper - fact remains, it will all come back to sound, execution, voicing, etc.

Sub the v7 (A7) with Eb7 and resolve to II-7 (Bb-7) - there's your C natural. Consider how close II-7 and VI-7 are, the only diff in this case is C natural vs. C#. How about A7alt - both sym. diminished and super locrian will give you a C natural. Also consider where the next change is going and the key-of-the-moment, if your next change is D7 - there's the C natural again, the A7 now becomes A-7 in the key-of-the-moment which of course is just 5/7/9/11 of D7.

It's nice to know the why, ultimately though it will depend on what the tune calls for in the context of any given moment so don't get locked into any one thing....

$0.02

-PE

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by avenger7326

I was originally going to post a question asking how a bassline can be in say A major and the melody be in A minor but realized if you added a blue note to the mix (in this case a C) it allows you to play in either major or minor in the the same key. Just wanna make sure my thinking is correct. Any corrections or additions to my new found enlightenment is welcome.

So many ideas on what is surely a matter of reletive major/minor with some "sweet notes added from the blues scale?
Since A minor is the reletive of C major and both keys use notes with no sharps or flats?

It is not unusual for keys to borrow notes (sweet notes) without them changing the key. Play a C major scale and use the flat3rd and flat6th ( the minor scale notes of C minor) as sweet notes to lead you major 3rd and 6th of the C major scale as you play it. It is still a C major scale, but with some sweet notes added. Sweet notes in this scale example do not have a beat of their own, they share the beat with the note they lead to, so in effect there are 10 notes over 8 beats ( C scale and 2 sweet notes), it is not a C major/minor scale, it is still a C major scale.

[the mojo hobo]

Originally Posted by PlanetEarth

There's a million ways you can make this note *in-key* on paper - fact remains, it will all come back to sound, execution, voicing, etc.

"on paper"

It might be good to remember that the pioneers of blues, the guys who first started the form, were not trained musicians. Most of them probably couldn't read or write English, let alone music.

No one ever told them you shouldn't play a flatted third over a major chord. They just played what sounded right to them, and it sounds good to me too.

[PlanetEarth]

Originally Posted by the mojo hobo

"on paper"

It might be good to remember that the pioneers of blues, the guys who first started the form, were not trained musicians. Most of them probably couldn't read or write English, let alone music.

No one ever told them you shouldn't play a flatted third over a major chord. They just played what sounded right to them, and it sounds good to me too.

Exactly the point....

You can justify it technically "on paper" till the fat lady sings - it just comes back to what sounds good and what doesn't (which is subjective in and of itself).

-PE

[JTE]

What I learned in my "History of Jazz" class (Thanks, Dr. Tom Streeter for that contribution to America's Bicentennial!) was that the note actually sung by many African musicians was between the major and the minor third. A white musicologist wrote of hearing a slave playing with a piano and said "this note is too low, and this one's too high".

That's why blues guitarists started using slides and bending strings, to get the note "in between".

John

[PlanetEarth]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Since A minor is the reletive of C major and both keys use notes with no sharps or flats?

Unless you look at it as II-7 then you have the F# in Cmaj as in IVmaj7 and the V7 on D. So now you have a Cmaj which depending on the situation you could imply Imaj7 or IVmaj7. Or all together it could be I-/maj7 in which case (diatonically) the the IV, V, and VII chords become dominant and you have #11 (en-harmonically b5) on the IV chord. A V7sub from the IV chord to the VII chord (or VII7/IV) resulting in another b5 which is also the root of the original IV chord, etc. etc. etc.....

Ultimately, any note can work, it's just how you use it, have a look at all the chromatic passing tones in say for example a Parker tune.

-PE