Question about key changes

Vermillionx · #1 08-31-2011, 07:42 AM

I would like to intorduce myself first off. This is my first post. I have been lurking around here and ran into a situation last night that I am just a bit confused about. I am normally a rock/metal player that just started playing about 8 months ago. I had a chance to jam with a friend of mine who plays blues mostly. While playing I got scolded for not hitting the key changes right. We were playing in A minor so I was using the pentatonic scales just to come up with something simple.

The key changes we were using was A minor to D minor. But I noticed at some time I was not quite hitting the root on the key changes. At times I was on the 5th of the D minor. So I was technically in key but I was getting yelled at for not bieng on the root. I am wondering how important it is to hit the root or can I use the 3rd or the 5th at the change?

Dan

MelodicExp · #2 08-31-2011, 07:46 AM

yea im new to bass as well but you can hit any chordal tones. maybe even try the 7th or b7th along with the 1st 3rd and 5th 9th 13th. what ever chordal tone you think sounds good.

LowEnd88 · #3 08-31-2011, 07:50 AM

You can... But I would hit the root right on the key change to emphasize it. Let the listener know that "Yes, that was in fact a key change" and then continue on your walking from there.

Reaper Man · #4 08-31-2011, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEnd88

You can... But I would hit the root right on the key change to emphasize it. Let the listener know that "Yes, that was in fact a key change" and then continue on your walking from there.

this is what I try to do. I always seek the root right at the change, then walk around from there- especially in an improvisational type situation

Bassman8416 · #5 08-31-2011, 08:10 AM

I believe you are are explaining chord changes as opposed to key changes...the key center of a particular song or section of a song is a different thing that you will become more familiar with the more you learn and read posts on this site. Start out with playing the chord tones of those chords.....R-3-5-7...in the case of minor(natural) chords we have R-b3-5-b7 ex in Am.....A-C-E-G....and for Dm......D-F-A-C. So many teachers will tell you to use the meat and potatoes as a bass player....root-third-five-and seven.....this way you are spelling out the chord changes and maintaining the groove so your friend can solo over what you are playing. Thats why so often in blues a bass player will establish and repeat a pattern and maybe add some subtle fills in there with out losing the structure of the chords or groove.

Vermillionx · #6 08-31-2011, 08:19 AM

A lot of my problem was bieng a new player I started off playing the R-3-5 and sometimes throwing in the 7th. And yes you are right it was cord changes. But, then when we switched to Dm, we would start the aeolian mode all over again. So, is that switching keys or just cords?

joroched · #7 08-31-2011, 08:35 AM

I see these chord changes in the key of C. Dm as the Dorian mode, and Am as the aeolian. Just to make clear how the chord changes relate to the key.

Bassman8416 · #8 08-31-2011, 08:40 AM

Nothing wrong with R-3-5 and adding the 7th...like I said its the meat and potatoes that provide a foundation ....you are switching chords....studying modes is a whole thing unto itself that you will get to. Start with the beginning learn your keys Major and Minor....check out the circle of 5ths and 4ths...learn major and the three types of minor(natural, harmonic and melodic). Also look at the dominant 7 chord R-3-5-b7.
Check this site out...start at the beginning:
Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net

MalcolmAmos · #9 08-31-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillionx

I would like to intorduce myself first off. This is my first post. I have been lurking around here and ran into a situation last night that I am just a bit confused about. I am normally a rock/metal player that just started playing about 8 months ago. I had a chance to jam with a friend of mine who plays blues mostly. While playing I got scolded for not hitting the key changes right. We were playing in A minor so I was using the pentatonic scales just to come up with something simple.

The key changes we were using was A minor to D minor. But I noticed at some time I was not quite hitting the root on the key changes. At times I was on the 5th of the D minor. So I was technically in key but I was getting yelled at for not bieng on the root. I am wondering how important it is to hit the root or can I use the 3rd or the 5th at the change?

Dan

Chord changes not key changes. Yes it is kinda important to nail the chord changes. Part of our job is to call attention to the chord change. Thus the walking bass line, i.e. walking to the next chord using chromatic runs or secondary dominants are two ways of doing this.

Chromatic runs are simple to do once you get the timing down - target the next root and miss it by 1, 2, 3 or 4 frets, then walk to it chromatically one fret at a time and be on it for the chord change. Just a matter of timing, i.e. leave early and land on the next root in time for the change.

Nothing wrong in my book to take fake chord sheet music on stage to help you nail the chord changes. When you start getting paid for the gig - then it is expected that you leave the sheet music at home.

Blues progressions are pretty static. Find out what one the bands likes and use that one.
Bob Brozman: The Evolution of the 12 Bar Blues Progression

Good luck.

BassmanSBK · #10 08-31-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillionx

The key changes we were using was A minor to D minor. But I noticed at some time I was not quite hitting the root on the key changes. At times I was on the 5th of the D minor. So I was technically in key but I was getting yelled at for not bieng on the root. I am wondering how important it is to hit the root or can I use the 3rd or the 5th at the change?

Dan

Playing the 5 on the downbeat instead of the root is perfectly acceptable in blues--especially if you are walking. But I would not do it at the chord change, as it would tend to make the chord movement ambiguous. It is better to hit the root when the chord moves, for example (playing two bars of Dmin):

R - b3 - 4 - b5 | 5 - 4 - 3 - b3

Vermillionx · #11 08-31-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassman8416

\studying modes is a whole thing unto itself that you will get to.

The reason I am bringing up modes is these are one of the first things my instructor taught me. He said I can play anything if I just know which mode it is in. I referenced the aeolian because, when I played throught that scale, everything sounded right and seemed to fit. I have tried the Dorian and it just did not line up at times. We have started getting into harmonic minors in our last lesson but, I am just not comfortable with them enough to use them in a jam session.

sonofabass · #12 08-31-2011, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEnd88

You can... But I would hit the root right on the key change to emphasize it. Let the listener know that "Yes, that was in fact a key change" and then continue on your walking from there.

+1

GreggBummer · #13 08-31-2011, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillionx

We have started getting into harmonic minors in our last lesson but, I am just not comfortable with them enough to use them in a jam session.

This is just my opinion...

I have played a lot of blues jams. I think one of the reasons I get invited back is because I tend to keep it simple. The most important thing is outline the chords. To me, this means being at the root on count one. It sounds boring, but, keeping the pulse and giving the other musicians space to do their thing is what blues bass playing is all about. If you want to see a really great approach, check out anything Tommy Shannon (Stevie Ray Vaughan/Arc Angels/Johnny Winter) has ever done. A different approach would be Allen Woody from Gov't Mule/Allman Brothers. He was a frenetic pick player who played busy lines in a three piece yet always held the bottom down by outlining chords.

MalcolmAmos · #14 08-31-2011, 09:35 AM

Blues - we play chord changes and leave the scale notes to the lead guitar. Notice the big period.

Now if the rest of the guys want scale notes - you all work it out, however, IMHO you've moved from Blues into something else.

teleharmonium · #15 08-31-2011, 09:43 AM

Generalizations about these things can't be all that general, they really are dependent on the musical style and on the expectations of the specific situation.

If you know what you're doing, have solid musical reasons for your decisions, and if what the rest of the band is doing or has previously established for the tune is sufficient for the changes to be outlined without you playing the root, you don't have to play the root. But if you're trying to do very basic outlining of the changes, or there are not a lot of chordal instruments in the band, or the harmony would be ambiguous without you playing the root, you should hit the roots.

Part of the issue here is that when you are playing an A over the D chord, it's impossible for anyone else to tell whether you are playing the 5th of D, or whether you are unclear that the chord just changed.

As you get more experienced you will start to feel the harmonic gravity and how bass lines relate to it. It can be cool to play with the timing of the chord change, or to have a melodic bass line that adds some tension over some of the changes, or changes the harmony by revoicing the chords over new roots, while still leading up to the moment where you will bring it back home.

That's kind of getting into more advanced stuff. It may be that what you did was good and the other players just couldn't handle it because of their limits; or, you could have been undermining them and making the band sound ambiguous or bad.

Vermillionx · #16 08-31-2011, 10:24 AM

I think it comes down to I am just trying different things. And when I was walking and it just happened that I was on the wrong note for the change but was playing it still in the cord it made me think. So I tried it a few more times and liked the way it sounded. There were times that I felt that I needed to hit the root on the changes but then there were times that I felt I could get away with not hitting it exactly. One of the instances that I felt that I could get away with it was during one of the 5 minute solos the guitarist was taking.

teleharmonium · #17 08-31-2011, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillionx

I think it comes down to I am just trying different things. And when I was walking and it just happened that I was on the wrong note for the change but was playing it still in the cord it made me think. So I tried it a few more times and liked the way it sounded. There were times that I felt that I needed to hit the root on the changes but then there were times that I felt I could get away with not hitting it exactly. One of the instances that I felt that I could get away with it was during one of the 5 minute solos the guitarist was taking.

What you're talking about is part of a pretty big issue for lots of musicians.

As our ears develop and we become very familiar with songs that we are playing, our judgment is increasingly different from that of a non musician in the audience. We get to the point where we're "hearing" changes from memory and then we can hear them (or their implication) in other instruments, even if they aren't actually being clearly or completely outlined in that moment.

This can make our parts sound to other people somewhat more out there than we realize.

It's impossible to know how it sounds to others, and we know it's different for everybody. But I think it's important to try to factor in differences that we are aware of.

You're right to note that vamping over some changes during a long improv solo is a good time to stretch out. Every time the tune goes through the same chords, it is less and less crucial to stick closely to the roots right on the changes. Both our hearing and the audiences hearing are moving targets in this way.

mambo4 · #18 08-31-2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillionx

I am wondering how important it is to hit the root or can I use the 3rd or the 5th at the change?

It's is more important than hitting any other note. It doesn't mean it's the only chord tone you can play, but nothing announces the arrival and identity of the new chord as effectively as hitting the root on the one. It helps everybody else -musicians and audiences- follow whats going on better. Exploring alternatives must be done tastefully and with big, big ears.

Vermillionx · #19 08-31-2011, 11:49 AM

What I am getting out of this is the general consensus is to hit the root and then move on. I take it this is the way it is in all types of music.

teleharmonium · #20 08-31-2011, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillionx

What I am getting out of this is the general consensus is to hit the root and then move on. I take it this is the way it is in all types of music.

It's more the case than not, but there are plenty of exceptions.

"Pet Sounds" by the Beach Boys is a good example of a record that is full of deviations from that convention.

There are lots of songs where the bass line will stay on the tonic chord (with a repetitive line) while the rest of the band plays through changes for part of a tune. It's a common arrangement trick in funk and disco and so on, usually with a minor chord as the tonic.

Since you're a relatively new player, I would say it's good to stay close to home at this point.