Question about the "key" that songs are in

[cire113]

Now am i correct to state that most songs are in a certain "Key"

like say the Key of C or E..... now some songs can switch keys correct?




And another question a song in the key of C major would it be compatible with also playing C Minor in it?


Now i know there are no "set" rules on keys but im just wondering what is generally used for songs and soloing..........


I guess my main question is can you have a song in different keys or solo in differnet keys and still have it sound harmonically(dont know if thats the right word) pleasant

[Mushroo]

Hi Cire, the simple answers are:
Yes, songs can switch keys in the middle. When they do this, it is called "modulation."
No, you wouldn't typically want to play C Minor if the song is in C Major. Exceptions include if the song modulates to C Minor or if you're playing the blues.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by cire113

And another question a song in the key of C major would it be compatible with also playing C Minor in it?

No - A minor would be the equivalent Minor to C Major - C Minor is very different from C Major.

I guess my main question is can you have a song in different keys or solo in differnet keys and still have it sound harmonically(dont know if thats the right word) pleasant

Well - when the key changes - you change as well - that's what Jazz musicians do when soloing!

You can solo in a different key to what is being played by others - but it will sound pretty dissonant and if you don't know what you are doing will probably just sound "wrong" ...

There are classical avant-garde pieces where there are several keys going on - but they do sound weird to most people!

Jazz musicians will choose notes from outside the key for "effect" - but generally you will have to be a very experienced soloist to be able to "resolve" these kind of ideas...?

If you just want noise, chaos and dissonance - go for it ! But if you have no conviction in what you play and aren't sure what you are doing, as I say - it will probably just make people think you played a bum note!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

As a PS to the above - you also can't just play in a key and expect it will sound "harmonically pleasant" - it could sound horrible!

You have to play the chord sequence and follow where that goes - not just choose random notes from a "notional key" !

[cire113]

the reason i ask is i play the radio all day and i am trying to play along with the songs on bass ...and my main goal of reach song is to try to figure out what "key" its in then i can usually play along

i just startd playing bass 2 months ago im not in a band so i just play with the radio all day and stay in the 1 octave range there are only 12 notes and i know the scales for all the keys its great practice but extremely difficult

[MarkTAW]

Songs can change keys. It's known as modulation.

There are a few related keys that a song will commonly switch to.

If the song is minor it may switch to its relative major. (In "A minor" this would be C Major)

If the song is major it may switch to its relative minor. (In C major this would be A minor)

A song may move to an adjacent key on the cycle of fifths. (In C, this would be either G or F).

Frequently a song will modulate in the bridge. The "wandering away from the home key" feeling gives the home key a strong sense of resolution when you finally return there.

Wikipedia has a decent(ish) article on Related Keys.

[EADG mx]

Songs can also switch to their Parallel Minor

ex. C major - C minor

this is uncommon but not unheard of

[Rune Bivrin]

Originally Posted by cire113

the reason i ask is i play the radio all day and i am trying to play along with the songs on bass ...and my main goal of reach song is to try to figure out what "key" its in then i can usually play along

i just startd playing bass 2 months ago im not in a band so i just play with the radio all day and stay in the 1 octave range there are only 12 notes and i know the scales for all the keys its great practice but extremely difficult

This is a very good way of developing your ear to hand coordination. I have done the same both for bass, guitar and saxophone, and I can usually nail the key withing two bars. Quite often I'll find the key immediately as if I had absolute pitch. Which I clearly don't.

You should also listen to Bruce and try - once you've found the key - to step outside of it and see if you find creative notes there. It can be very effective in moderate amounts.

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

Songs can also switch to their Parallel Minor

ex. C major - C minor

this is uncommon but not unheard of

+1. One interesting technique I read of recently was, when writing modally, to change the mode as the song ascends in pitch up to the chorus. So the overall tonality remained the same, but a few of the notes that may have been minor (say, 6th & 7th) earlier are now major, etc.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by cire113

the reason i ask is i play the radio all day and i am trying to play along with the songs on bass ...and my main goal of reach song is to try to figure out what "key" its in then i can usually play along

i just startd playing bass 2 months ago im not in a band so i just play with the radio all day and stay in the 1 octave range there are only 12 notes and i know the scales for all the keys its great practice but extremely difficult

This is a great way to go. It shouldn't be th eonly way you learn, but it's great for the ear/hand thing.

[mambo4]

It is worth mentioning, for beginers:
Playing within the key of a song can be a useful guide to choosing your basslines,
but following the chord changes should be the goal.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by mambo4

It is worth mentioning, for beginers:
Playing within the key of a song can be a useful guide to choosing your basslines,
but following the chord changes should be the goal.

Yes, but you have to follow the chord changes AND keep within the key. It's not always enough to follow the chord changes because if you use a passing tone that's not in the key, it can clash. OTOH, sometimes you're not supposed to follow the key by virtue of the change, like if you do an Ab or Bb climb to C, so you have to be flexible with it, too. But knowing the key is key.

[cire113]

If the song is minor it may switch to its relative major. (In "A minor" this would be C Major)

If the song is major it may switch to its relative minor. (In C major this would be A minor)

that means they are the same notes correct just different starting root notes...



I find that staying in key i have had a breakthrough in my bass play since its only been 2 months but its exciting to know i can actually harmonically makes many different types of tunes that SOUND good because they are in KEY


I mean the major and minor scales are just brilliant it is really hard to play something that sounds bad if you stick within them..

Now i understand theres more technical play but for a beginner its a awesome.. i think i might have some confidence now to go inquire to join a real life band

thanks for all the great support guys

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by cire113

the reason i ask is i play the radio all day and i am trying to play along with the songs on bass ...and my main goal of reach song is to try to figure out what "key" its in then i can usually play along...

Yea this is great. I do this alot. I find that some songs, especially older songs will be out of tune and that makes it difficult to really get the key and chords, so if you just can't find the key, that might be the problem.

BTW. I use www.pandora.com This site allows you set up your own 'radio station' by entering in an artist name or a song and then it randomly picks songs that have the same (by their standards and what they are licensed to play) qualities. So, to stay with a basic Blues format you might enter 'Coasters' or 'Drifters' or 'Chuck Berry' or some other 50's R+B player and then most of the songs would have pretty much the same kind of chord progression. You can have all kinds of different 'radio stations'. That way you can go from easy songs to more complex and all kinds of styles. I really reccommened that you try this and play with the computer.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Yes, but you have to follow the chord changes AND keep within the key. It's not always enough to follow the chord changes because if you use a passing tone that's not in the key, it can clash.

I would do this in Jazz - that can be a nice dissonance that sort of gives a part of the Jazz bass 'sound' - it can sound very Jazzy to have passing tones that are not part of the key and the books I have seen on constructing walking bass lines say that you can use passing tones that are not part of they key!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I would do this in Jazz - that can be a nice dissonance that sort of gives a part of the Jazz bass 'sound' - it can sound very Jazzy to have passing tones that are not part of the key and the books I have seen on constructing walking bass lines say that you can use passing tones that are not part of they key!

Of course you can, but there's an art to it, an art that's best served by knowing the key.

[Bruce Lindfield]

To be honest - I very often have no interest in the key - as bass player, I'm just outlining the chords.

If somebody puts a lead sheet in front of me - I will just think about the chords.

If at a later date I have a chance to sit down and analyse the tune - think about options - then I might assess what the key is at any point - but it's not important to me "in the moment"!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

To be honest - I very often have no interest in the key - as bass player, I'm just outlining the chords.

If somebody puts a lead sheet in front of me - I will just think about the chords.

If at a later date I have a chance to sit down and analyse the tune - think about options - then I might assess what the key is at any point - but it's not important to me "in the moment"!

That's pretty wild. I really wasn't aware that it took away from playing if you learned the key of a song. It takes me all of one second to determine the key from a lead sheet. How hard can that be?

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That's pretty wild. I really wasn't aware that it took away from playing if you learned the key of a song. It takes me all of one second to determine the key from a lead sheet. How hard can that be?

Yeah, that is pretty wild. Figuring out a key is instant for me if there's music in front of me.

It's pretty interesting to read peoples' responses to this, and see how differently people think (and play) in relation. I'm almost opposite of Bruce, my brain is going crazy with stuff when I'm "in the moment". I'm always thinking "This key has x number of sharps/flats, and we're on this chord, and I can use this fingering pattern, etc..." It's almost automatic still, but I have to think about what I want to do next before I do it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Maybe it's because I am playing Jazz where the key is changing, often from bar to bar and there are things like secondary dominants thrown in or modulations for less than a bar..?

If I was thinking about what key I was in , I wouldn't be playing and listening to what was going on...

So - there are tunes I've played - like Lee Konitz's "Thinging" where the key changes gradually throughout and it is much easier to just play the chord changes, rather than thinking whether we have modulated to the next key yet or are still in the previous one!

Of course, if it's a very simple tune - it's instant to say "that's a minor Blues in C" - but generally I like playing original and "interesting" chord sequences!