Question about modes

[Allmanfan456]

Hey everyone, I've hit a wall in my bass playing and I feel I'm not getting any better so I decided to learn modes but I'm confused at something. I'm learning from this video: http://www.ultimate-guitar.tv/bass_l...ass_modes.html

Will I be able to move these patterns around the fret board say I want to play a G Ionian in C am I allowed to do that? I don't know theory very well so I don't know the rules. Sorry for such a stupid question.

[mjl422]

Yes, the C would become your Ionian, D-dorian, E-Phrygian...etc.

[Allmanfan456]

Originally Posted by mjl422

Yes, the C would become your Ionian, D-dorian, E-Phrygian...etc.

Ohhhhh okay I completely get it. Thank you! Wow that's a lot simpler then I thought.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Allmanfan456

Hey everyone, I've hit a wall in my bass playing and I feel I'm not getting any better so I decided to learn modes but I'm confused at something. I'm learning from this video: http://www.ultimate-guitar.tv/bass_l...ass_modes.html
Will I be able to move these patterns around the fret board say I want to play a G Ionian in C am I allowed to do that? I don't know theory very well so I don't know the rules. Sorry for such a stupid question.

What is the pattern of a G Ionian mode? It's the G major scale pattern. So if you want to play C Ionian just play the C major scale. Do your self a favor and forget all this mode stuff - especially using the same notes just starting on a different first note.

Modes are for the melody. With bass there are two times modes fit into what we do. 1.) When you are asked to take a lead break. How many lead breaks are you being asked to take? And then 2.) When you have a static chord being used for at least 2 measures, three is better. The modal mood has to have time to develop and playing over a chord progression this does not have time to develop. Modes are to be played over a modal vamp.

Something to think about - if the lead guitar is playing modes what should we be doing. Not playing modes in competition with him. How about augmenting his solo with the chord tones from that modal vamp we talked about.

Chord tones and how to build bass lines utilizing the chord tones in the song will IMO take you where you want to be.

If you insist on going with modes. Read this.
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...698#post143698 and play parallel modes beyond the 12th fret. We need the higher register for the melody to come through.

Good luck.

[Allmanfan456]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

What is the pattern of a G Ionian mode? It's the G major scale pattern. So if you want to play C Ionian just play the C major scale. Do your self a favor and forget all this mode stuff. Modes are for the guitar people or when you are asked to take a lead break. How many lead breaks are you being asked to take?

Chord tones and how to build bass lines utilizing the chord tones in the song will IMO take you where you want to be.

If you insist on going with modes. Read this.
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...698#post143698

Good luck.

Well what is this chord tone stuff? I Don't know theory and stuff so I want to know whats best, I just want to be able to build basslines without the basic penatonic scale I've been using the 5 years I've been playing.

EDIT: I do know my basic major and minor scales, its just I don't know where to go next in my playing.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Allmanfan456

Well what is this chord tone stuff? I Don't know theory and stuff so I want to know whats best, I just want to be able to build basslines without the basic penatonic scale I've been using the 5 years I've been playing.

EDIT: I do know my basic major and minor scales, its just I don't know where to go next in my playing.

Modes ain't going to help you with that.

[A440Hz]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Modes ain't going to help you with that.

Huh?

A mode is just another name for a scale. A scale can be the major scale (Ionian), the natural minor scale (Aeolian), the blues scale, Hindu scale, Bebop major scale, whatever. It can be a four, five, six, seven, or more note scale.

Modes are a perfectly valid thing for a bassist to study in order to form basslines. They're not just for melody!

If you're playing a bassline over a progression like

||: Cm7 | F7 :||

then the C Dorian would be a perfectly reasonable thing to play on for a bassline. Sure, there are good choices and bad choices for notes; just playing random C Dorian ain't gonna make a great bassline. But using that mode gives one a guide for passing tones between strong chord tones.

The OP is probably wanting to improve rock/blues playing? Right? Well, I have a Jazz example, just because it's one that comes to mind. The tune "All Blues" by Miles Davis. The bassline uses the Myxolidian mode. I'm sure if I put more effort into it, I could think of some pop/rock/blues examples of modal playing.

OP, IMHO, keep up with your modes. This is good practice--for your fingers, for your brain, and for your soul.

EDIT: "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" by the Allman Brothers. It's eerily similar to the progression I noted above. There's quite a bit of movement in the bass, and I don't think it's all pentatonic, if I'm recalling it correctly. The melody is definitely in Dorian, and there's probably some Dorian happening in the bass, too. I might be wrong. But I'd want to know my Dorian mode if I were playing that song! Huh--OP, are you an "Allman Fan" literally? If so, then this is right up yer alley!

[A440Hz]

"Chord Tones?" Allmanfan, those are the notes of the chord you're playing under. For C major, the chord tones are C-E-G.

[Allmanfan456]

Originally Posted by A440Hz

Huh?

A mode is just another name for a scale. A scale can be the major scale (Ionian), the natural minor scale (Aeolian), the blues scale, Hindu scale, Bebop major scale, whatever. It can be a four, five, six, seven, or more note scale.

Modes are a perfectly valid thing for a bassist to study in order to form basslines. They're not just for melody!

If you're playing a bassline over a progression like

||: Cm7 | F7 :||

then the C Dorian would be a perfectly reasonable thing to play on for a bassline. Sure, there are good choices and bad choices for notes; just playing random C Dorian ain't gonna make a great bassline. But using that mode gives one a guide for passing tones between strong chord tones.

The OP is probably wanting to improve rock/blues playing? Right? Well, I have a Jazz example, just because it's one that comes to mind. The tune "All Blues" by Miles Davis. The bassline uses the Myxolidian mode. I'm sure if I put more effort into it, I could think of some pop/rock/blues examples of modal playing.

OP, IMHO, keep up with your modes. This is good practice--for your fingers, for your brain, and for your soul.

EDIT: "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" by the Allman Brothers. It's eerily similar to the progression I noted above. There's quite a bit of movement in the bass, and I don't think it's all pentatonic, if I'm recalling it correctly. The melody is definitely in Dorian, and there's probably some Dorian happening in the bass, too. I might be wrong. But I'd want to know my Dorian mode if I were playing that song! Huh--OP, are you an "Allman Fan" literally? If so, then this is right up yer alley!

I do like the allman brothers but not as much as I used to. My user name is very misleading, I'm a huge metal head. But I do love me some classic rock that's the stuff I played when I was first starting out. I want to be able to create interesting bass lines that Isn't me ripping off Geezer Butler or Steve Harris all the time. I want to add something say to a metal song my band writes, make it interesting so that I'm not stuck following the guitars trying to branch out using a basic scale and my same basic ideas over and over again.

I'm tired of my playing and I just want to improve myself as a player.

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by Allmanfan456

Well what is this chord tone stuff?

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bas...s-are-primary/

[MalcolmAmos]

Chord tones 101.

The song is using the C F G7 and back to C chords in the verses. Playing chord tones would be using chord tone interval numbers. http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm
That C chord would use the 1-3-5 notes of the scale. So would the F chord except now the 1 note is an F the 3 note is now A and the 5 is now a C. The 1-3-5 for the C chord would be using the C, E & G notes.

Probably going to be a song in 4/4 time so you really need four notes are something like 1-3-5-8 or you could use:

This explains how you can get that done.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...67#post9372867

Ask questions.

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

What is the pattern of a G Ionian mode? It's the G major scale pattern. So if you want to play C Ionian just play the C major scale. Do your self a favor and forget all this mode stuff - especially using the same notes just starting on a different first note.

Modes are for the melody. With bass there are two times modes fit into what we do. 1.) When you are asked to take a lead break. How many lead breaks are you being asked to take? And then 2.) When you have a static chord being used for at least 2 measures, three is better. The modal mood has to have time to develop and playing over a chord progression this does not have time to develop. Modes are to be played over a modal vamp.

Something to think about - if the lead guitar is playing modes what should we be doing. Not playing modes in competition with him. How about augmenting his solo with the chord tones from that modal vamp we talked about.

Chord tones and how to build bass lines utilizing the chord tones in the song will IMO take you where you want to be.

If you insist on going with modes. Read this.
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...698#post143698 and play parallel modes beyond the 12th fret. We need the higher register for the melody to come through.

Good luck.

This is good advice!

[CYDbass]

I'm learning a lot about modes at the minute too, and I would diagree with the fact that they aren't needed.

Say your playing with a Guitarist who knows his onions when it comes to theory and you, for example, decide to play a song in E Major. He may not just use the chords of E, A and B but would instead construct chords using the modes of the E Major scale.
This would leave you with a pattern of E Major, A Major with an Augmented 4th (A +4) and B with a Dominant 7th (B7).

If you were working with non-modal chords then you could construct a bassline using the regular notes from each major scale then it would sound fine.
But if instead the modal option was used and, for example, you hit a D whilst playing under an A+4, then it wont sound right.

I think learning the modes from scales helps make basslines more interesting, it allows you to expand your knowledge and have some fun when jamming or just goofing around. It helps with adding in fills to your playing, adding real flavour to the bassline.

I hope I havent rambled too much away from topic!

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by CYDbass

Say your playing with a Guitarist who knows his onions when it comes to theory and you, for example, decide to play a song in E Major. He may not just use the chords of E, A and B but would instead construct chords using the modes of the E Major scale.
This would leave you with a pattern of E Major, A Major with an Augmented 4th (A +4) and B with a Dominant 7th (B7).

If you were working with non-modal chords then you could construct a bassline using the regular notes from each major scale then it would sound fine.
But if instead the modal option was used and, for example, you hit a D whilst playing under an A+4, then it wont sound right.

I'm afraid you have this all confused here. The situation you describe here--with chords all taken from notes naturally occurring in E major, is exactly when you DON'T need modes. You don't need the "modes of E major" when all the notes you need are already in the key of E major. You're just making things harder.

I think you've been given the misapprehension that normally (nonmodally), when you hit a major chord, you're supposed to pick notes from the major scale built from that chord's root. That is not correct at all. As a basic starting point, you go with first the chord tones and second the notes in the prevailing key/tonality/modality of the moment.

This is exactly why many of us say that in general, it's better to get a firm understanding of chords and key/tonality before worrying overmuch about modes.

There is a place for modes, but it's not in the application you describe, where they're unnecessary.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Allmanfan456

I do like the allman brothers but not as much as I used to. My user name is very misleading, I'm a huge metal head. But I do love me some classic rock that's the stuff I played when I was first starting out. I want to be able to create interesting bass lines that Isn't me ripping off Geezer Butler or Steve Harris all the time. I want to add something say to a metal song my band writes, make it interesting so that I'm not stuck following the guitars trying to branch out using a basic scale and my same basic ideas over and over again.

I'm tired of my playing and I just want to improve myself as a player.

As A440Hz says, there are places for modes. I spent a number of years playing a lot of Celtic music, where modality was fairly common. Modes are not just for modal vamps, BTW.

But it sounds, from your description, as if you would benefit more from getting your chord tones down cold. And gaining a solid understanding of key and some basic harmonic function to tie all this stuff together. To me, modes then flow more naturally out of that kind of basis. For most of us anyway. FWIW.

Take those two chords A440Hz mentioned. Do you know all the notes in each of those? Do you know which notes are the roots, the 3rds, the 5ths, the 7ths? This kind of stuff is likely to help you more than modes right know. IMO anyway.

[MalcolmAmos]

......... hitch hiking on this..... Playing from lead sheet or fake chord the chord will be shown. Betting the composer has this chord matching with the melody being played at this moment in time....... if we follow the chord it does not matter that it went out -- does not matter what key it went to. If everybody went out with it we are all still sounding good.

Playing the chord's tones and providing accompaniment lets us providing what is expected.

And yes I agree modes are not evil. There is a place for them, but, I do feel not in the first year.

Chord tones first, modes later, much later.

[Allmanfan456]

Okay so what I've gathered from this I should focus on learning chord tones and learn modes later on? Or should I focus on chord tones while learning a few mode patterns?

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes. Wading around in the modal creek right now will be very confusing. After you understand theory and how music thinks THEN you will understand how to USE modes. What they are is fairly simple, however, how to use them takes a little more time. You'll know when. Don't worry there is a lot of bass to be played before modes are needed.

Good luck on your journey.

[Allmanfan456]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Yes. Wading around in the modal creek right now will be very confusing. After you understand theory and how music thinks THEN you will understand how to USE modes. What they are is fairly simple, however, how to use them takes a little more time. You'll know when. Don't worry there is a lot of bass to be played before modes are needed.

Good luck on your journey.

Makes sense then. Well thank you all for your advice.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Allmanfan456

Okay so what I've gathered from this I should focus on learning chord tones and learn modes later on? Or should I focus on chord tones while learning a few mode patterns?

Keys and basic harmonic function too.

If you relate well to self-teaching out of books (which not everyone does), I've heard folks speak highly of this one:

http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html

Take a look at the table of contents and see how far down modes are. They're there, they're just not the first thing out of the gate.