question about modes and chords in a song.

[mikomiloho]

hello! uhh, i have a couple of noobie questions. i hope you guys can help me out (i know you guys can) -.-. lol.

http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/...hp?chapter=013

alright at this link, under "what to play over a given progression", i have some questions..

the progression given is C F Em G.
and for the modes approach, E Phygian is used for Em. but what if the Em is an Emajor? will the Phygian mode still suit, beacuse it's a minor scale while Emajor would well, be a major.

this kinda brings me to my next question.. would there ever be a Emajor in a song in the key of C? how do i phrase this properly, let's just say i wanna write a song in G.
chords i can use wld be.. G Am Bm C D Em F#.
am i right? so for a song in the key of C, it would be C Dm Em F G Am B?
its kinda confusing me a bit.

i know this is probably peanuts to you but i'm kinda blur.

sorrry.

[jadesmar]

E-major is the 5th chord in an A harmonic minor or A melodic minor key.

Since A-natural minor is notewise equivalent to C-major, you may wish to think of this as a temporary key center shift to the relative minor.

Scales to try may be E-phrygian #3, based on the A-harmonic minor scale or E-myxolydian b6 based on the A-melodic minor ascending scale.

Chord tones to try are E-G#-B-D-F (most likely)

I'm not sure how that F# chord fits in your key of G, but it looks wrong. Likewise with the B in the key of C-major.

[mikomiloho]

wow, that's a lot of content. haha, but i think i kinda got a bit of it, thanks dude.

[tycobb73]

F# is the 7th tone of the G scale so that chord could be there, but it would be diminsshed and not major and still be in the key of G, maybe that's what it is. My teacher lays it out like this.

1st, there are no rules

Ionian - major
Dorian - minor - m7
phrygerian - minor - minor when next chord is half step and major (3rd tone in scale)
4th (can't remember name) major maj7
mixolydian - major - 7
aolian - minor - m
7th (can't remember name) diminished

technicly, if you are palying e major you are not in the key of g anymore, but there are accidentals, and remember my teacher's 1st rule, there are no rules, the chart is just what would sound best. if it sounds good to you use it

[jadesmar]

If you are using a single capital letter to represent major chords, the F# and the B are clearly wrong.

It would be more like. F#m(b5) or Bm(b5).

As for your list. Here:
Ionian - Major
Dorian - Minor (b3, b7)
Phrygian - Minor (b2, b3, b6, b7)
Lydian - Major (#4)
Myxolydian - Major (b7)
Aeolian - Minor (b3, b6, b7)
Locrian - Half diminished (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

I still think, if you are playing in C-major and you go to a E-major chord, this is most likely to be heard as a temporary modulation to A-minor, but not one of those minors in the list above.

More like:
Harmonic minor (b3, b6)
or
Ascending melodic minor (b3)

[ryco]

Originally Posted by mikomiloho

the progression given is C F Em G.and for the modes approach, E Phygian is used for Em. but what if the Em is an Emajor? will the Phygian mode still suit, beacuse it's a minor scale while Emajor would well, be a major.

Well it could*, but in general no. It would sound dissonant if you played a minor scale over a major chord. The feature of a minor chord is a b3 (called a minor 3rd - m3), the feature of a major chord is a "natural" 3rd (called a major 3rd - M3). There would be a clash between the thirds. Thirds are an important chord tone because it gives a chord its "quality" (it's characteristic sound [makes it sound like it does]).
*The "minor bebop" scale contains both m3 and M3, but the M3 is usually played on a weak beat as a passing tone. That is, ya don't emphasize it much.

Originally Posted by mikomiloho

this kinda brings me to my next question.. would there ever be a Emajor in a song in the key of C?

Yes, but this chord is called a Non-Diatonic chord because it doesn't naturally occur in the key of C. The Wheat Bass page you sent talks a little bit about this at the bottom of the page. But yeah, you'll find E Maj chords in C, like Jadesmar says, through tempoary modulation (change to another key) or as a seconary dominate itself (V7/vi).

Originally Posted by mikomiloho

let's just say i wanna write a song in G.chords i can use wld be.. G Am Bm C D Em F#.am i right?

Close. G Am Bm C D Em F#dim. dim = R b3 (minor 3rd) b5 (diminished 5th)

Originally Posted by mikomiloho

so for a song in the key of C, it would be C Dm Em F G Am B?

Close again, but watch the 7th step! As Tycobb points out, the 7th step scale is diminished, so in the key of C = C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

Originally Posted by mikomiloho

its kinda confusing me a bit.i know this is probably peanuts to you but i'm kinda blur. sorrry.

No worries!! It's called learning and this stuff gets easier as you go along. Honest! Hey, it even starts to make some sense after awhile! Never stop asking questions!! baby steps, bro!

Hope this helps somewhat! peace&joy -Ryco <%+

[ras1983]

Originally Posted by mikomiloho

...
the progression given is C F Em G.
and for the modes approach, E Phygian is used for Em. but what if the Em is an Emajor? will the Phygian mode still suit, beacuse ...

No, there is a key change, even if it is just for that single chord (and this happens often in latin and jazz music. usually there is a turnaround of some sort to give you a clue).

[mikomiloho]

alright, i got it. haha
thanks a lot guys.

[jadesmar]

Cheers mikomiloho.

I want to comment on a response real quick though.

ryco, a diminished triad and a half-diminished triad contain the same R-b3-b5.

However, if you call it diminished to extend the chord you are probably looking at R-b3-b5-bb7

Where as in a half-diminished extension, you would be looking at R-b3-b5-b7.

So
Bmin(b5) is probably more accurate than Bdim. but, YMMV.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by jadesmar

Bmin(b5) is probably more accurate than Bdim. but, YMMV.

Agreed! Happy Thanksgiving!

peace

[JimmyM]

I've refrained from talking about this because someone always gets mad when I speak my mind, but I've decided I need to say something.

Mikomiloho, this is no reflection on you, but the one thing that I absolutely hate about scale theory is that it causes someone starting out like you to ask a question like yours. Scale theory is taught to be rigid and unwavering, and music is completely loose and constantly wavering. A question like yours can only be asked by a student taught scale theory by a strict technician of music. And I mean no disrespect whatsoever to you. It's more a reflection of how you were taught.

This is why I'm a big fan of learning chord theory. Scale theory says, "You must follow the instructions to the letter." Chord theory says, "There's always going to be a curveball thrown at you, so here's how to prepare for it." Now it's good to know that you can play certain modes with certain keys and tonal centers, but when an out-of-key chord change occurs, it will have come and gone before you figure out what mode to play over it. But if you use the notes that the chord suggests, you can take the tonal center of the song, make the appropriate changes for the chord on the fly, and sound like a champ in the process.

[drumsnbass]

JA!

As a fairly new bass player, what you just wrote seems more than natural. Why get hung up on scales theory, when chords get ya there 98% of the time?

I have read some theory in the past, and worked some scales, and just said "screw it". Even in the chord-only structure, you still have most of the notes to play. The rest can be used as passing notes when necessary.

Why anyone but a theoritician would get all hung up on all the scales is beyond me -- it's like memorizing baseball stats. Useful in an arguement with another baseball fanatic, but rather senseless otherwise...

I'm in your camp JimmyM.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I've refrained from talking about this because someone always gets mad when I speak my mind, but I've decided I need to say something.

Mikomiloho, this is no reflection on you, but the one thing that I absolutely hate about scale theory is that it causes someone starting out like you to ask a question like yours. Scale theory is taught to be rigid and unwavering, and music is completely loose and constantly wavering. A question like yours can only be asked by a student taught scale theory by a strict technician of music. And I mean no disrespect whatsoever to you. It's more a reflection of how you were taught.

This is why I'm a big fan of learning chord theory. Scale theory says, "You must follow the instructions to the letter." Chord theory says, "There's always going to be a curveball thrown at you, so here's how to prepare for it." Now it's good to know that you can play certain modes with certain keys and tonal centers, but when an out-of-key chord change occurs, it will have come and gone before you figure out what mode to play over it. But if you use the notes that the chord suggests, you can take the tonal center of the song, make the appropriate changes for the chord on the fly, and sound like a champ in the process.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say - but it can be useful to know scale theory as it tells you why certain chords are where they are in a progression - what function they are fulfilling and can help you analyse tunes.

Of course the point is that as you say - it's not a good idea to use it to determine what notes you are going to play - especially for bass lines where as a general rule, you should be outlining the chords and the form of the tune - not noodling around notional keys or scales!

The thing is that in reality, if you want to be a good musician you can't afford to ignore any of this stuff in the long run - but I do agree that for beginner bass players it's far better to concentrate on the chords!!

[jadesmar]

Ah, I was going to mention that before.

The caption of that section is "what to play over a chord progression".

However, as a bass player, it seems you should be more concerned about "what to play under a chord progression".

The chord tones in my first reply are a fine choice IMO.

[ryco]

I didn't know there was a difference between "chord" theory and "scale" theory. It's all the same isn't it?

I'm not a strict theoretician. If someone asks a question I will answer to the best of my ability and as completely as I can. I feel it's better to have correct info, even at the very beginning, so it isn't something one will have to "unlearn" later. If my info is faulty I would hope someone would correct me so's I might learn.

As far as what anybody chooses to play: no, there are no real rules. There are choices and some are going to sound smoother than others. But I don't think there are any music police who will haul you away if you cherish dissonance. Critics and consumers may not buy your ideas is prob the stiffest penalty

The more you know and put into practice the more choices you have to play with. It's not about "stats", it's about sound choices for sound choices. Theory is also a good way to have a conversation about music with someone who knows music theory. It's fun!

Poor miko. If we are going to hijack his thread I would hope it would be for learning purposes instead of emo. Like: what is the difference in referring to a diminished triad as a mb5? Is there a functional purpose? That, IMO, would be a vastly more interesting subject. but that's just me


"Theory is to explain what you've done after you've done it." - Sum Wiseguy




I'm not mad - crazy maybe - but not angry

[jadesmar]

Originally Posted by drumsnbass

Why get hung up on scales theory, when chords get ya there 98% of the time?

The answer to your question and the following question are quite possibly the same:

Why get hung up on chords theory, when root notes can get you there 67% of the time?

[drumsnbass]

thats why some are Democrats & some are Republicans, no?

As a beginner, it is far easier to learn chords and their patterns, than to learn all the scale notes and remember
which ones are the chord notes. Realistically, i think most
players (especially jazz, my interest) are going to remember
patterns far easier, and translate those patterns to the fret board far easier, than picking off every note as a note.

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by drumsnbass

JA!

As a fairly new bass player, what you just wrote seems more than natural. Why get hung up on scales theory, when chords get ya there 98% of the time?

I have read some theory in the past, and worked some scales, and just said "screw it". Even in the chord-only structure, you still have most of the notes to play. The rest can be used as passing notes when necessary.

Why anyone but a theoritician would get all hung up on all the scales is beyond me -- it's like memorizing baseball stats. Useful in an arguement with another baseball fanatic, but rather senseless otherwise...

I'm in your camp JimmyM.

I think your overlooking an important fact. Chords come from the scales. As valuable as chord/appregios are, if that is all you limit your playing to then your playing would be like Baskin Robbin only having one flavor, get old real fast.

There is lots of scales, but no one needs to learn all of them, but the basic ones do need to be learned. Also learning how scales are contructed help tranpose them into any key you need to play in. If you don't then you have to rely on the "Sliderule effect" of guitar and bass. Also knowing how the major scale is construsted makes it easy to construct other scale buy know what note(s) to modify.

I would bet if you analyzed your own playing you'd find your are using more scales than you realize. But by not know it, it makes it harder to expland on it, use it in other situations, or find new chords they lie in the scale.

Yes you can play a lot with a little knowledge, but the more you know the more you can play.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

but the one thing that I absolutely hate about scale theory is that it causes someone starting out like you to ask a question like yours. Scale theory is taught to be rigid and unwavering, and music is completely loose and constantly wavering. A question like yours can only be asked by a student taught scale theory by a strict technician of music. And I mean no disrespect whatsoever to you. It's more a reflection of how you were taught.

This is why I'm a big fan of learning chord theory. Scale theory says, "You must follow the instructions to the letter." Chord theory says, "There's always going to be a curveball thrown at you, so here's how to prepare for it." Now it's good to know that you can play certain modes with certain keys and tonal centers, but when an out-of-key chord change occurs, it will have come and gone before you figure out what mode to play over it. But if you use the notes that the chord suggests, you can take the tonal center of the song, make the appropriate changes for the chord on the fly, and sound like a champ in the process.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but IMO this is quite wrong. You're portraying chord theory and scale theory as it they're somehow opposed, and this just ain't so. They're two parts of the same thing; they go hand in hand, and there's no opposition at all unless you're misunderstanding what they're about.

Scale theory DOES NOT just say, "You must follow the instructions to the letter." I'm not sure where you would even get this. Chord theory DOES NOT just say, "There's always going to be a curveball thrown at you, so here's how to prepare for it." Either one can say either of those things, because they are two aspects of the same thing.

What I *think* you may be referring to is the idea that you have to play a different scale every time you shift root notes. I would agree that that's mistaken, but that is not "scale theory." Let me say that again. That is not "scale theory."

There's nothing about knowing your chords that precludes your knowing your scales, and vice versa. The two reinforce each other. You could even say that a scale is nothing but a chord spaced out in time, with the gaps between the chord tones filled in.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by mikomiloho

hello! uhh, i have a couple of noobie questions. i hope you guys can help me out (i know you guys can) -.-. lol.

http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/...hp?chapter=013

alright at this link, under "what to play over a given progression", i have some questions..

the progression given is C F Em G.
and for the modes approach, E Phygian is used for Em. but what if the Em is an Emajor? will the Phygian mode still suit, beacuse it's a minor scale while Emajor would well, be a major.

this kinda brings me to my next question.. would there ever be a Emajor in a song in the key of C? how do i phrase this properly, let's just say i wanna write a song in G.
chords i can use wld be.. G Am Bm C D Em F#.
am i right? so for a song in the key of C, it would be C Dm Em F G Am B?
its kinda confusing me a bit.

i know this is probably peanuts to you but i'm kinda blur.

sorrry.

The thing is, you don't have to use a different mode for every chord. Those chords ( C Em F) are all diatonic to the key of C--that is, they occur "naturally" in that key. Instead of thinking of 3 different modes/scales, you could just make different selections from within one scale. You do this through a combination of scale knowledge and chord knowledge. C contains the notes C E G, with C as the root. Those are the chordal tones for that chord, and they're the notes you emphasize when you're on the C, with C probably the most important one most of the time. Similarly, Em is E B G; F is F A C. If you want to connect the chord tones to each other, either within a chord or when going from one chord to another, you can keep in mind that the notes of the full C major scale are C D E F G A B C. If you stick to those notes in your transitions, you will be sticking to the C major tonality. If you work in extra in-between notes like F# or G#, you will be creating a sound that kind of extends a little way out of basic C major. That is, you are not entirely in strict C major any more. That's a factual statement, not a value judgment. Going outside a key is not wrong, unless it gives you a sound you don't want. Nor is staying entirely within a key.

EDIT: I didn't address the "what if it's an E major chord" question, because some of the other folks did.