Question about playing with a guitarist???

[suitlandkid2005]

I am beginner and want to know how to jam and come up with something that sounds pretty good when I play with my friend who is a guitarist? He sounds really good. I am just sitting there like huh??? because I do not know what to play. Is it as simple as asking him what key he is playing in and whether it is major or minor and just play notes with in a scale? Like let's say he is playing in A minor, do I just play with the notes in the A minor scale? I know I wouldn't know what he is playing since he would be improvising so we couldn't play the same notes and I wouldn't want to all the time either. I just want to come up with something that sounds good when he is playing.

[Bass_Bear]

Now this all depends on your level of technical ability, your knowledge and where you are in your bass playing career, but from my own experience, I would tell you to keep it wimple and feel your way in.

No I'm not talking about your first time with a chick:P. In all seriousness though, find out what the chords are, and just hit some roots, get the feel of the song, maybe add a little rhythm to it, and once your comfortable, you can start adding in some 3rd's, 5th's, 7th's and whatnot. As I said though, don't make it hard on yourself start nice and easy, peddle some roots and find the groove, even it it consists of a few quarter notes at the start.

J

[suitlandkid2005]

Originally Posted by Bass_Bear

Now this all depends on your level of technical ability, your knowledge and where you are in your bass playing career, but from my own experience, I would tell you to keep it wimple and feel your way in.

No I'm not talking about your first time with a chick:P. In all seriousness though, find out what the chords are, and just hit some roots, get the feel of the song, maybe add a little rhythm to it, and once your comfortable, you can start adding in some 3rd's, 5th's, 7th's and whatnot. As I said though, don't make it hard on yourself start nice and easy, peddle some roots and find the groove, even it it consists of a few quarter notes at the start.

J

Lol at first time with a chick...I think I get what you are saying. Like if he says, I am playing in a minor and he is playing the chords a minor b minor c minor and d minor, I should play those notes in the a minor scale and come up with a rhythm that goes with what he is playing?

[DudeistMonk]

Here's a few pointers-

- If he is playing rhythm guitar then you'll need to get the progression from him or his hands or your ears.

- If he is playing lead guitar chances are he is playing within a certain key (whither he knows it or not) and just going with flow playing a solo by ear (aka: "Feelin' it man" in guitar speak)...In which case you want to throw a groove behind it, it could be a 1 chord funk line, or a riffy rock line...ext.

- You can always make him follow you, if you can't communicate, or you can't follow him. I can't tell you how many guitarists I tried to jam with in college/HS who had no idea what a key was.

-There is always the 12 bar blues, if nothing else if you can play 12 bar blues chances are your guitarist can too, and then you each have your rolls defined and there are no issues other than "what key?".

- Chances are even though he "sounds amazing" he probably doesn't know as much as you think he does(I'm assuming your young guys), so don't freak out if it doesn't work (sometimes your not on the same page musically), and don't be intimidated...Lead players practice soloing a lot, they should be good at it, but that doesn't mean that they can play with others well or know more about music.

[phatbass]

At a minimum, you need to know:

Chord construction i.e. what notes make up what chord. It's NOT scary rocket science. A basic major or minor chord only has 3 notes, and octaves of those notes.

Scales. At least learn the major scale, the Aeolian minor, and the major and minor blues pentatonic scales. Again; NOT scary - it's just a bunch of notes.

At it's most basic, you'll play notes out of whatever chords he plays and use notes from the scale appropriate to what key he's in to transition from one chord to the next.

Before everyone jumps on me, I KNOW this is a gross over-simplification but it's enough to get started on, IMHO.

I strongly recommend a good teacher ASAP, even if only for a while, to get you started.

[Fred19137]

get ur scales down good, play along with bunches of different songs, try to solo while listening, be confident in urself to know how to play. PS I as the bass player usually comes up with the riffs, and my bro the guitarist always tells me what he is playing when it comes time. If he has a problem with you askin then hes a dick and it is time to move on.

[HelloJerk]

If you are just beginning and just want to jam for fun, one way to go about it is to pick a song that both you and your guitarist friend like, figure out how to play it and then play it. Playing a cover together can be a great launching pad for some real jamming.

Of course chord voicing and pentatonic scales and all that is great to know, but I don't think you need to know that stuff to have fun.

I think the best place to start is playing songs.

[tobie]

Originally Posted by Bass_Bear

find out what the chords are, and just hit some roots

That's what I wanted to suggest. You don't need to know anything about chord construction in order to do that - it's quick results, nice on the ear & highly satisfying (for now)!

[trust24]

I also find this difficult. I understand how to do it when im sat at home but as soon as i get with my mate i havent got a clue. it usually ends up with him telling me what to play

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

Here's a few pointers-

- You can always make him follow you, if you can't communicate, or you can't follow him. I can't tell you how many guitarists I tried to jam with in college/HS who had no idea what a key was.

-There is always the 12 bar blues, if nothing else if you can play 12 bar blues chances are your guitarist can too, and then you each have your rolls defined and there are no issues other than "what key?".

...There's your answer!

[kraigo]

Originally Posted by suitlandkid2005

I am beginner and want to know how to jam and come up with something that sounds pretty good when I play with my friend who is a guitarist? He sounds really good. I am just sitting there like huh??? because I do not know what to play. Is it as simple as asking him what key he is playing in and whether it is major or minor and just play notes with in a scale? Like let's say he is playing in A minor, do I just play with the notes in the A minor scale? I know I wouldn't know what he is playing since he would be improvising so we couldn't play the same notes and I wouldn't want to all the time either. I just want to come up with something that sounds good when he is playing.

My shortcut to playing bass in a not-totally-sucking manner. I'm laying this out in black-and-white while acknowledging that I am glossing over a ton of stuff.

To me, the chord progression is the best place to start. Within any chord there are strong notes and weak notes.

Strong notes sound confident but aren't as interesting harmonically. They provide a solid foundation to the music but don't really spice it up as much. Weak notes have the possibility to make things interesting or they can just sound weak. They're more dangerous, but potentially more fulfilling. No guts, no glory. You can somewhat make up for the lack of harmonic interest with rhythmic interest.

There are strong places rhythmically to place them, It's generally a good idea to play the root when the chord changes to define the chord change for the listener. Generally it's a good idea to play a strong note on a down beat (one and three in 4/4 time). Other places rhythmically you have a responsibility to fill in with other tones to make it interesting to yourself, your band and your audience.

Usually the strongest notes in a chord are the root, the fifth and dominant seventh. You can make whole bass parts using just those notes over the chord and sound passible. You could be in a band that tours the world with just those tones. They will give you the most bang for the buck. Even when you branch out and move to more interesting tones, these notes will be prominent in your playing.

The next strongest notes are chord tones, the third and the sixth. These are dangerous because you are committing to a major or minor tonality and it sounds awful if you get it wrong. The chord tones are used a lot in jazz and blues but not as often in rock. I'll put the major seventh in this category. Dominant seven chords are more common and I put them in the "strong tones" category. If there's a major seven chord, I'd say it's a chord tone.

Next up come the scale tones, the second and the fourth. Both of these are safe in terms of tonality of the scale, the fourth is "perfect" there are no majors or minors. By second I mean major second - two frets up. A minor second, one fret up, is more chromatic to me. The scale tones usually want to lead your ear to the next chord or they're used in passing, on your way to a stronger tone. To reiterate, you are safe using the second and the fourth with either a major or minor chord because these tones are inside the scale but not in the chord - you aren't committing to a major or minor tonality. It was pointed out below that the fourth sounds bad in a major chord and I replied that a second sounds bad with a minor chord. I guess there are pitfalls to beware of with scale tones with regard to major and minor tonality.

Chromatic tones are the weakest. Minor seconds, the "wrong" third and sixth (and seventh) for the chord and the tri-tone. They are used when you are just passing through or perhaps the key is modulating. They are useful in chord substitions when you want to add spice, but if you don't pull it off they sound like a mistake. Use them with caution.

As with all music theory, this is just a general guideline - rules that have been successfully broken hundreds or thousands of times. But if you're in an unfamiliar situation and either for your own sake or for the sake of the people on the bandstand with you or for the audience, work more in the "strong tones" area and things will at least be firm. As everyone gets more confident start branching into the more interesting tones.

Typical fingerings of intervals:

Root: the named chord - A in an A, Am, A7, etc. It's octave is two strings and two frets up.

Minor second: One fret up from the root (or two strings and one fret down in pitch).

Major second: Two frets up from the root (or two strings down in pitch and the same fret).

Minor third: Three frets up from the root or one string up and two frets down in pitch.

Major third: One string up and one fret down in pitch.

Perfect fourth: Up one string on the same fret or one string down and two frets down.

Tritone (aka augmented fourth or diminished fifth): One string up and one fret up or one string down and one fret down.

Perfect fifth: Up one string and two frets or down one string, same fret.

Minor sixth: Up two strings and down two frets or down one string and up one fret.

Major sixth: Up two strings down one fret or down one string and up two frets.

Dominant (minor) seventh: Up two strings, same fret or same string, down two frets.

Major seventh: Up two strings and one fret or same string, down one fret.

Over three strings you have two easy places to get the root, the fifth and the dominant seventh:

Root and it's octave up: Up two strings and up two frets.

Fifth: One string and two frets up or same fret one string down.

Major seventh: Two strings up same fret or two frets down same string.

So using octaves you have six very solid notes at your disposal in very close proximity.

All of this is to encourage you to branch out, but if you want to get things going quickly, that's one way to do it.

KO

[professor_bills]

This is from the Musically and technically inept:
Two ways to go....
As stated ealier each of you work on the same songs on your own and then get together and work out the timing
Or ask him for a cheat sheet listing what chords he is playing and then play the root notes until your comfy enough to spice it up..this was also suggested earlier.
And if your buddy is just a lead guitard and cant play chords or do a whole song without retuning half way through ---- good luck.
<<<<< Been there did that went home found a new band
Another thing to be wary of is that this guy may sound really good alone, but the minute he has to stay within the constraints of a truely structured song that a rythm section offers he may blame you for throwing him off. It's the Bassist's job to keep tempo so you need to learn how to control the band while working timing out.

[professor_bills]

BY the way Kraigo I like your cheat sheet I'm printing it out

[kraigo]

Originally Posted by professor_bills

BY the way Kraigo I like your cheat sheet I'm printing it out

Thanks.

KO

[DudeistMonk]

My shortcut to playing bass in a not-totally-sucking manner. I'm laying this out in black-and-white while acknowledging that I am glossing over a ton of stuff.

I really enjoyed that, its all the stuff a newbie wants to know but nobody will tell him...Only thing I'd disagree with is that the 4th IS a "somewhat dangerous" tone over a major chord because its only a half step from the major 3rd, although I love it over minor.

[kraigo]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

I really enjoyed that, its all the stuff a newbie wants to know but nobody will tell him...Only thing I'd disagree with is that the 4th IS a "somewhat dangerous" tone over a major chord because its only a half step from the major 3rd, although I love it over minor.

I agree with your disagreement.

KO

Added, on second thought (get it? "second" thought? Punny stuff.), The second is just as dangerous with minor chords, so they're pretty much equal: Not as safe as chord tones.

[tranceFusion]

I like what kraigo said but want to add something simpler.

The first thing you should understand is what a chord change is. You should be able to hear the chord changes in a song. A basic bassline in its simplest form should consist of playing the root note of each chord at the time it changes. If the chord is A minor, you play and A. If the chord is G7, you should play a G, etc. That is the first thing to get down, IMO.

The problem with playing along with a guitar player who is just noodling a solo is that there is no musical context. He may be playing within a key, but the bass player is holding together the progression. When a solo is played in the context of a song, you have a contract between the two of you as to what the progression of the song is and when you get to the solo, the bass player holds down the progression and the guitar player is given a context to work within. Just sitting down and playing your bass while a guitar player is randomly noodling is not going to produce anything musically enjoyable if you are both beginners.

I would discuss with the guitar player a chord progression you are going to play and then you can start to play it together. It doesn't have to be complicated. It could be two random chords (which means you will be playing 2 notes). Then you will be playing on the same page and you can add things in based on what kraigo said. If something is difficult, always break it down into simpler core elements and focus on them until it works. Playing twice as many notes twice as fast that don't fit together sounds way worse than slowly playing only a few notes that fit together well..

[tobie]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I would discuss with the guitar player a chord progression you are going to play and then you can start to play it together.

Good suggestion for a beginning bass player. Or if you want some excercise in learning the neck, let him call the chord changes on the fly and play the root in time. The problem is that acoustic guitarists ('strumming chord players') are always aware of the chord progressions in a song - I'm not too sure that lead guitarists ('pickers') always are or need to be. If that's the case with your buddy, try and find a strummer to practice with (with or without your buddy) - at least on the short term?

[suitlandkid2005]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

Here's a few pointers-

- If he is playing rhythm guitar then you'll need to get the progression from him or his hands or your ears.

- If he is playing lead guitar chances are he is playing within a certain key (whither he knows it or not) and just going with flow playing a solo by ear (aka: "Feelin' it man" in guitar speak)...In which case you want to throw a groove behind it, it could be a 1 chord funk line, or a riffy rock line...ext.

- You can always make him follow you, if you can't communicate, or you can't follow him. I can't tell you how many guitarists I tried to jam with in college/HS who had no idea what a key was.

-There is always the 12 bar blues, if nothing else if you can play 12 bar blues chances are your guitarist can too, and then you each have your rolls defined and there are no issues other than "what key?".

- Chances are even though he "sounds amazing" he probably doesn't know as much as you think he does(I'm assuming your young guys), so don't freak out if it doesn't work (sometimes your not on the same page musically), and don't be intimidated...Lead players practice soloing a lot, they should be good at it, but that doesn't mean that they can play with others well or know more about music.

I will try that. I have some stuff I came up with and I will see if he can put some things to it.

Originally Posted by kraigo

My shortcut to playing bass in a not-totally-sucking manner. I'm laying this out in black-and-white while acknowledging that I am glossing over a ton of stuff.

To me, the chord progression is the best place to start. Within any chord there are strong notes and weak notes.

Strong notes sound confident but aren't as interesting harmonically. They provide a solid foundation to the music but don't really spice it up as much. Weak notes have the possibility to make things interesting or they can just sound weak. They're more dangerous, but potentially more fulfilling. No guts, no glory. You can somewhat make up for the lack of harmonic interest with rhythmic interest.

There are strong places rhythmically to place them, It's generally a good idea to play the root when the chord changes to define the chord change for the listener. Generally it's a good idea to play a strong note on a down beat (one and three in 4/4 time). Other places rhythmically you have a responsibility to fill in with other tones to make it interesting to yourself, your band and your audience.

Usually the strongest notes in a chord are the root, the fifth and dominant seventh. You can make whole bass parts using just those notes over the chord and sound passible. You could be in a band that tours the world with just those tones. They will give you the most bang for the buck. Even when you branch out and move to more interesting tones, these notes will be prominent in your playing.

The next strongest notes are chord tones, the third and the sixth. These are dangerous because you are committing to a major or minor tonality and it sounds awful if you get it wrong. The chord tones are used a lot in jazz and blues but not as often in rock. I'll put the major seventh in this category. Dominant seven chords are more common and I put them in the "strong tones" category. If there's a major seven chord, I'd say it's a chord tone.

Next up come the scale tones, the second and the fourth. Both of these are safe in terms of tonality of the scale, the fourth is "perfect" there are no majors or minors. By second I mean major second - two frets up. A minor second, one fret up, is more chromatic to me. The scale tones usually want to lead your ear to the next chord or they're used in passing, on your way to a stronger tone. To reiterate, you are safe using the second and the fourth with either a major or minor chord because these tones are inside the scale but not in the chord - you aren't committing to a major or minor tonality. It was pointed out below that the fourth sounds bad in a major chord and I replied that a second sounds bad with a minor chord. I guess there are pitfalls to beware of with scale tones with regard to major and minor tonality.

Chromatic tones are the weakest. Minor seconds, the "wrong" third and sixth (and seventh) for the chord and the tri-tone. They are used when you are just passing through or perhaps the key is modulating. They are useful in chord substitions when you want to add spice, but if you don't pull it off they sound like a mistake. Use them with caution.

As with all music theory, this is just a general guideline - rules that have been successfully broken hundreds or thousands of times. But if you're in an unfamiliar situation and either for your own sake or for the sake of the people on the bandstand with you or for the audience, work more in the "strong tones" area and things will at least be firm. As everyone gets more confident start branching into the more interesting tones.

Typical fingerings of intervals:

Root: the named chord - A in an A, Am, A7, etc. It's octave is two strings and two frets up.

Minor second: One fret up from the root (or two strings and one fret down in pitch).

Major second: Two frets up from the root (or two strings down in pitch and the same fret).

Minor third: Three frets up from the root or one string up and two frets down in pitch.

Major third: One string up and one fret down in pitch.

Perfect fourth: Up one string on the same fret or one string down and two frets down.

Tritone (aka augmented fourth or diminished fifth): One string up and one fret up or one string down and one fret down.

Perfect fifth: Up one string and two frets or down one string, same fret.

Minor sixth: Up two strings and down two frets or down one string and up one fret.

Major sixth: Up two strings down one fret or down one string and up two frets.

Dominant (minor) seventh: Up two strings, same fret or same string, down two frets.

Major seventh: Up two strings and one fret or same string, down one fret.

Over three strings you have two easy places to get the root, the fifth and the dominant seventh:

Root and it's octave up: Up two strings and up two frets.

Fifth: One string and two frets up or same fret one string down.

Major seventh: Two strings up same fret or two frets down same string.

So using octaves you have six very solid notes at your disposal in very close proximity.

All of this is to encourage you to branch out, but if you want to get things going quickly, that's one way to do it.

KO

Thanks a lot man...I appreciate it. I didn't want you to think you typed all that for nothing. Just been caught and couldn't reply. This is some good info.

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I like what kraigo said but want to add something simpler.

The first thing you should understand is what a chord change is. You should be able to hear the chord changes in a song. A basic bassline in its simplest form should consist of playing the root note of each chord at the time it changes. If the chord is A minor, you play and A. If the chord is G7, you should play a G, etc. That is the first thing to get down, IMO.

The problem with playing along with a guitar player who is just noodling a solo is that there is no musical context. He may be playing within a key, but the bass player is holding together the progression. When a solo is played in the context of a song, you have a contract between the two of you as to what the progression of the song is and when you get to the solo, the bass player holds down the progression and the guitar player is given a context to work within. Just sitting down and playing your bass while a guitar player is randomly noodling is not going to produce anything musically enjoyable if you are both beginners.

I would discuss with the guitar player a chord progression you are going to play and then you can start to play it together. It doesn't have to be complicated. It could be two random chords (which means you will be playing 2 notes). Then you will be playing on the same page and you can add things in based on what kraigo said. If something is difficult, always break it down into simpler core elements and focus on them until it works. Playing twice as many notes twice as fast that don't fit together sounds way worse than slowly playing only a few notes that fit together well..

Thanks...I will look into this.

Originally Posted by tobie

Good suggestion for a beginning bass player. Or if you want some excercise in learning the neck, let him call the chord changes on the fly and play the root in time. The problem is that acoustic guitarists ('strumming chord players') are always aware of the chord progressions in a song - I'm not too sure that lead guitarists ('pickers') always are or need to be. If that's the case with your buddy, try and find a strummer to practice with (with or without your buddy) - at least on the short term?

Thanks for your input.

[bass player 48]

Originally Posted by suitlandkid2005

Like if he says, I am playing in a minor and he is playing the chords a minor ,b minor ,c minor, and d minor

Then he’s not really playing “in the key of A minor”… or at the very least, what he’s playing is not at all diatonic.

The chords in A minor are NOT: A minor, B minor, C minor, D minor, and so on…

The chords in A minor ARE: A minor, B diminished, C (Major), D (Major), E minor, F (Major), G minor, A minor.