Question about shuffle rhythm and musical notation

velalv · #1 08-13-2011, 04:11 PM

Hi Folks:

I have what I think is a relatively softball and noob question about playing shuffle rhythm. I get that I am supposed to play 8th notes instead of straight eights by playing it essentially as a triplet, where the first two notes in the triplet are played as one note, and then the second note of shorter duration.

My question is about reading. I am looking at some songs (like Girl from the Beatles) and My Generation that have a mixture of eighth note rhythms, and also lots of quarter notes in succession. Does the term shuffle feel relate only to how you play the eight notes, or does it go to any pair, like a pair of quarter notes in succession or a pair of half notes in succession. With Girl from the beatles, notation indicated shuffle rhythm, but there were no eighth notes in the song at all, so I played it straight, but for some reason did not feel right. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Fergie Fulton · #2 08-13-2011, 04:32 PM

Easy way is think of the Chewin' tabaca (chewing tobacco) as the phonetic rhythm of this "shuffle feel".
Say and repeat:
chewin' ta-ba-ca chewin' ta-ba-ca chewin' ta-ba-ca chewin' ta-ba-ca.

Different shuffle feels on this phonetic will have a drawl of the chewin' part elongated to suit the tempo of the shuffle.

So try what you have learned to this feel and see if it works for you. ( its great for Texas shuffles )

tstone · #3 08-13-2011, 05:29 PM

In normal practice for a shuffle rhythm in 4/4 time, only eighth notes are swung, not quarters, not halfs, and not sixteenths.

velalv · #4 08-13-2011, 06:41 PM

Thanks both. I appreciate the answers. I was having a hard time discerning whether the other notes were swung.

However, if it has a shuffle feel and there are no eighth notes in the bass line, what is the point of the shuffle designation at the top of the music. The only reason I could think is that there are other instruments playing. Is that right?

Snarf · #5 08-13-2011, 09:50 PM

A chart that says "shuffle" at the top indicates how the feel should . . . well, FEEL. Even if you're playing all quarter notes, any eighth note embellishments you might play should be in the shuffle feel. Also, those quarter notes WILL feel different when you play them with a drummer who's also playing a shuffle feel. The note value won't be different, but the way you feel the music will be. You might have a drummer that plays really on top of the shuffle, or one that lays behind, or one that's right on.

tstone · #6 08-14-2011, 09:35 AM

What Snarf said. In a shuffle rhythm, you strive for a "lazier" feeling than in straight time. For quarter notes in a shuffle rhythm, I would put a little move emphasis on beats 2 and 4 than on 1 and 3, and would probably cut beats 3 and 4 a little shorter than 1 and 3, more like a tenuto.

Snarf · #7 08-14-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstone

What Snarf said. In a shuffle rhythm, you strive for a "lazier" feeling than in straight time. For quarter notes in a shuffle rhythm, I would put a little move emphasis on beats 2 and 4 than on 1 and 3, and would probably cut beats 3 and 4 a little shorter than 1 and 3, more like a tenuto.

This is definitely true. Although I wouldn't say all shuffles are "lazy" feeling. Some of the coolest shuffle grooves I've played with drummers felt like the groove was going to fall over the cliff it was so top-heavy.

Papa Dangerous · #8 08-14-2011, 10:33 AM

All great advice so far. I suggest you, most likely try this alone, and dance, or swing to the music. The point of swing and a shuffle is to get a nice little accent in your dance step. Think of a walt... triple time. ONE, two, three. Say "ONE" with more power, then two and three normal. It takes a fraction of a second longer, but its noticeable.

So now translate it to the bass. Play, (and think/say) ONE, two three.. ONE, two three.

Try and add a little movement to your bass play where you shuffle/hip/shoulder movement/ whatever left on ONE, and the slowly return to normal stance during two and three. Then make the movement right during ONE, and then move back for two three as your return to normal stance. (Think Chris [Rock?] in that Jackie Chan movie where he gets heated because Jackie touched a black mans radio xD). This will physically help you find your groove.

So when reading the music, and it says to play a shuffle. Listen to the tune before hand, then find out where the longer note is held. Usually I find it as the first beat of triplets. Triplets are often considered one beat in say 4/4 (1.2.3, 1.2.3, 1.2.3, 1.2.3) [I may be a little off on this approach to rhythm, someone correct if I am not right]. Each one being the start of a new beat that takes a bit more dynamic. Each triple set should equal one beat even if they are three 8th notes.

velalv · #9 08-15-2011, 10:20 AM

Thanks all, I think I have what I need to move on from my current rut. Looking forward to woodshedding tonight.

All the best

Groove Master · #10 08-15-2011, 10:49 AM

Here is a page from my book Groove 101 where I explain the different notations for a shuffle groove written in 4/4 and 12/8. Both will sound the same even if the time signatures are differents.

Russell L · #11 08-16-2011, 08:22 AM

If you skip down the sidewalk, like a kid, your feet will play the "shuffle" eighth notes. Try it.

Groove Master · #12 08-16-2011, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

If you skip down the sidewalk, like a kid, your feet will play the "shuffle" eighth notes. Try it.

Hey, good one !!!

JimK · #13 08-16-2011, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groove Master

Here is a page from my book Groove 101 where I explain the different notations for a shuffle groove written in 4/4 and 12/8. Both will sound the same even if the time signatures are differents.

I like your attachment.
I also tend to think "Shuffle" when I see a Dotted 1/8th note + a 16th note.
The tied Triplet thing...I think "Swing".
Just generalizations...there is a fine line between both Feels.
Charting out "Feels" can be problematic.

What also works for me is your 1st Example:
Although noted as Straight 1/8th notes...the direction sez "Shuffle in 4/4".

Russell L · #14 08-16-2011, 02:47 PM

Most guys I play with who call out a shuffle mean swing. A dotted 8th/16th is a different animal.

BassmanSBK · #15 08-16-2011, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Most guys I play with who call out a shuffle mean swing. A dotted 8th/16th is a different animal.

+100

A shuffle is an implied triplet. It's implied because you leave out the middle note. So, instead of this sort of feel: "123123123123...." you have: "1_21_21_21_21...." (In both examples, 1, 2, 3 & _ have the same time value, give or take a bit of "swing.")

JimK · #16 08-17-2011, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Most guys I play with who call out a shuffle mean swing. A dotted 8th/16th is a different animal.

Not here or IME.
A Shuffle (around here) is used more in Rock/Blues.
Swing (around here) is typically more Jazz vs. Rock/Blues.

Russell L · #17 08-17-2011, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimK

Not here or IME.
A Shuffle (around here) is used more in Rock/Blues.
Swing (around here) is typically more Jazz vs. Rock/Blues.

Well, when I hear the term it's mostly with some blues guys. When we start to playing the song it is just blues with a swing beat. I'll have to ask around and see what kind of answers I get from different folks. I think these blues guys use the term to differentiate a swing beat from a straight beat.

fingerbun · #18 08-17-2011, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Well, when I hear the term it's mostly with some blues guys. When we start to playing the song it is just blues with a swing beat. I'll have to ask around and see what kind of answers I get from different folks. I think these blues guys use the term to differentiate a swing beat from a straight beat.

Blues country or rock. Swing feels quite different from shuffle though I don't know how to describe the difference in words.

Groove Master · #19 08-17-2011, 07:22 AM

To me a Shuffle is really a groove based on 8th notes triplets that implies a backbeat on the snare and therefore is better represented on paper as a 12/8 because of the rolling beat. Jazz would be more represented in 4/4 because the triplets feel is a littte bit more random then then the shuffle and implies a lot more syncopations.

I hope it makes sense written like this.

fingerbun · #20 08-17-2011, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groove Master

To me a Shuffle is really a groove based on 8th notes triplets that implies a backbeat on the snare and therefore is better represented on paper as a 12/8 because of the rolling beat. Jazz would be more represented in 4/4 because the triplets feel is a littte bit more random then then the shuffle and implies a lot more syncopations.

I hope it makes sense written like this.

I see it more or less the same way. I think of swing as 12/8 too though that's kind of rough.

Would you say something like Status Qo's "Roll Over Lay Down" was a shuffle?