Question about spelling sus chords

[geoffkhan]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

The lack of an A and the inclusion of a B. Depending on the melody, either one of these may make a big difference.

That's a difference in chord tones, what is the difference in function?

Basically the leading tone is harmonized. If used in the proper context--you noted that it would depend on the melody--using a Cmaj7/D for a Dsus7 can work quite well. And remember, I'm not the only jazz pianist who does this... :P

[Marcus Willett]

IMO, you're missing the point.

The point is not what will work/function. Lots of chords will function as a SUS4 chord. If I want an Fsus4 tonality/function...jeez I could do:

F7sus4
Bb/F
Eb/F
Ebmaj7/F
G-7/F

Do all those chords sound the same to you? I hope not. There's a lot of possibilities, and if you read the thread, you'll see I never disputed that different chord possibilities will work. Again, that's not the point.

Original question:
"Are these the same? I see them written both ways

C7sus & C7sus4
Dsus & Dsus4"

Not "What will function as a sus chord?"

You're basically arguing that voicings don't matter, only function does. You'll find precious few good pianists or any jazz musician who will agree with that.

[geoffkhan]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

IMO, you're missing the point.

The point is not what will work/function. Lots of chords will function as a SUS4 chord. If I want an Fsus4 tonality/function...jeez I could do:

F7sus4
Bb/F
Eb/F
Ebmaj7/F
G-7/F

Do all those chords sound the same to you? I hope not. There's a lot of possibilities, and if you read the thread, you'll see I never disputed that different chord possibilities will work. Again, that's not the point.

Original question:
"Are these the same? I see them written both ways

C7sus & C7sus4
Dsus & Dsus4"

Not "What will function as a sus chord?"

You're basically arguing that voicings don't matter, only function does. You'll find precious few good pianists or any jazz musician who will agree with that.

While not directly addressing the exact question the threadposter asked (other forum members did a good job of that before my post), I was taking the question further, past the basic spelling of a sus chord, and providing information about how you could practically interpret a sus chord when you play.

Once you have the music theory down (i.e. spelling of a sus chord), it's about application (i.e. common interpretations of sus chords).

The topic we're dealing with, flexibility in voicings, is very genre-sensitive--which is why I kept asking you what genre you had in mind with your statements. (which you didn't answer?)

In some music, for example fusion, charts are usually written much more specifically, but in standard jazz the charts are very open to interpretation and embellishment. To me, it can sound very boring when standard jazz players follow charts exactly. It's knowing what you can embellish on and what you should play as written what makes a good jazz musician.

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

The point is not what will work/function.

Here's an example of what you're saying: "Now see that F7? I know a b9 would sound great in this context since it resolves to a Bb-6, but the chord on the chart says F7, so you much absolutely not alter any of the chord tones."

[Marcus Willett]

Originally Posted by geoffkhan

While not directly addressing the exact question the threadposter asked (other forum members did a good job of that before my post), I was taking the question further, past the basic spelling of a sus chord, and providing information about how you could practically interpret a sus chord when you play.

I don't disagree with any of this. The point is, the poster was asking a specific question. It's terrifying easy to get into the finer points of harmony and superimposing harmonic structures and losing sight of this.

You might say that you were taking the questions further (you did and you are), and this is not a bad thing, but my position is that if the original poster were in a position to absorb/understand all of this, he probably wouldn't be asking a question like the original one anyway.

Originally Posted by geoffkhan

Here's an example of what you're saying: "Now see that F7? I know a b9 would sound great in this context since it resolves to a Bb-6, but the chord on the chart says F7, so you much absolutely not alter any of the chord tones."

Here's another example. I have the same F7 resolving to a Bb-6. Only in my example, I wrote a melody that has 2 whole note Gs over those 2 changes. How's that b9 gonna sound now? Does that depend on the genre?

I am well aware of the liberties you can take with changes, especially in a jazz context, but that definitely needs to come after an awareness of basic harmonic structures.

Again, you're not wrong at all of course. I'm just suggesting that you're answering a question that was not asked. It wasn't "What type of possible harmonic structures could I use to represent the function of a suspended dominant?" That type of question is very different and would lead to the type of answers you are talking about.

The question was essentially about basic spelling of sus4 chords.

In the case of C7sus or C7sus4 (same thing)

C -F -G -Bb

That's it.

Are there other things you can do with that? Sure. It depends (to an extent) on genre, but moreso on the melody. If the melody allows, you could superimpose all kinds of things. But the melody may not, and the genre would be irrelevant in that case.

If you're blowing over changes, then it depends on where the soloist is taking it. Maybe he's playing straight mixolydian, maybe something else.

If I write a piece of music and I write F7, then I want mixolyidian. if I want a superlocrian implication, I'll write it...either F7alt or F7#9. If I want a diminished structure, I'll write F7b9. If I want Cmaj7/D, I'll write that too. If I write C7sus4, then I want mixolydian.

If we're playing jazz standards, then it would require knowledge of the tune's harmonic implications and hopefully an awareness of the melody as well.

[geoffkhan]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

I don't disagree with any of this. The point is, the poster was asking a specific question. It's terrifying easy to get into the finer points of harmony and superimposing harmonic structures and losing sight of this.

You might say that you were taking the questions further (you did and you are), and this is not a bad thing, but my position is that if the original poster were in a position to absorb/understand all of this, he probably wouldn't be asking a question like the original one anyway.

Fair enough, I see your point. Sorry I didn't catch on sooner. :P

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Here's another example. I have the same F7 resolving to a Bb-6. Only in my example, I wrote a melody that has 2 whole note Gs over those 2 changes. How's that b9 gonna sound now? Does that depend on the genre?

Yes, of course melody is one of the things you take into consideration when making any harmonic embellishments, otherwise you could end up with all sorts of nasty sounding OOD and such.

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Again, you're not wrong at all of course.

The question was essentially about basic spelling of sus4 chords.

In the case of C7sus or C7sus4 (same thing)

C -F -G -Bb

That's it.

We can definitely agree on that.

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

If I write a piece of music and I write F7, then I want mixolyidian. if I want a superlocrian implication, I'll write it...either F7alt or F7#9. If I want a diminished structure, I'll write F7b9. If I want Cmaj7/D, I'll write that too. If I write C7sus4, then I want mixolydian.

As you mentioned before, it depends on the melody (and I might add it's harmonic context also).

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

If we're playing jazz standards, then it would require knowledge of the tune's harmonic implications and hopefully an awareness of the melody as well.

Right, that's basically what I was saying--things aren't always written out so specifically in music (particularly jazz standards), to the point where some judgement has to be made of the player's discretion. (and ability to understand the tune's harmonic implications and awareness of the medody, like you said)

[Marcus Willett]

After all that, it looks like we agree...