Question about teachers and tabs

[hrodbert696]

I'm self-taught myself, and when I was getting launched used to use tabs to figure out songs. Now I usually just figure out a song by ear or get chords and only look up tabs when there's a tricky bit I'm having a hard time figuring out. In other words, I'm not a tab-hater but I'm trying to play more by ear and get less dependent on them. I can read music (learned it playing saxophone as a kid in band) but I'm slow at translating standard notation to a bass fretboard and in practice I find it simpler to go by ear.

All of which is background to something that puzzles me: Whenever a new member comes on asking for advice to get started in bass, two things that always get mentioned are 1) get an actual human teacher and 2) stay away from tabs.

Now, being self-taught, I don't know what bass teachers normally do, but there are a couple of guitar teachers I've known (that my kids go to). When they teach the kids a song, what do they promptly do? Tab out the song with them. Not that I know lots and lots of them, but I have never met a guitar teacher who didn't use tabs to teach. So it seems like, in practice, those two items of advice are going to be contradictory.

So what's going on with teachers? Is there something wrong with all the ones I know? Is there a place for tablature in the teaching process? Is it something to do with teaching kids? A little clarification, especially from those of you who do teach or have had experience with different teachers, would help me assess this.

[Elsie8687]

I started playing bass quite late in life. Prior to picking up a bass for the first time, I had seven years of formal music training (both instrumental and vocal), sang many types of music as solos and as a member of groups ranging from duets to large choruses, and played rhythm guitar and some keyboard for church praise bands. So I figured, 'how hard can playing the bass be?' and started on the road of self teaching myself. Hit a wall and got frustrated. Then I hooked up with a great teacher. Daylight and dark, my friend. Granted, there are a lot of great bassists around that never paid a teacher......but I guarantee they got lots of help along the way from players with much more experience than they had. Think about it, even PGA golf pros have coaches......So for me it's definitely a +1 on the teacher thing.

As for TABs vs standard notation, my teacher asked early on if I could read TAB. I said, "yes, enough to get by," and he said, "Good, you might need it along the way." However, he teaches me using standard notation. Another point in favor of standard notation is that it gives you timing, meter, dynamics, etc. that TAB doesn't offer. Each has its place in the bassist's kit bag, but don't underestimate the value of being able to read real music along with a working knowledge of the theory behind it.

[Intenzity]

It has been said a million times by people all over this board, but I will say it again......

Tab is fr@cking retarded.

Yes, I am a tab hater. It is not music, it lacks rhythmic notation ability (unless you add stems, and then at the point..what the hell, just read music) and it is unique to bass/guitar so you will never, ever, EVER get tab from someone who doesn't play guitar (piano, singer, sax, etc) on a gig. If you rely on tab it tells people a lot about how you play.

Its for pre-teens or people that never really want to understand what they are playing and just want to make some notes come out as soon as possible.

You know the old joke right... How do you get a guitar player to turn down?

Put some sheet music in front of him.

Just learn to read. Get over it. Tab is a waste of time. You think you are learning, but you are just keeping yourself stuck. Join the last 200 years of music and learn how to read. It's not that hard or 20 million people all over the planet would not have been able to figure out how to do it. There a million books that will walk you through it, just do a little at a time each day. It will change your musical life forever.

And...if your teacher is giving you tab?

Get another teacher. Fast.

Or make him start showing you how every single other instrument on the planet uses notation instead. If *he* can't read, then absolutely get another teacher ASAP.

[hrodbert696]

Clarification: my actual question was not what people think of tablature, that's been done and redone and overdone and I have a pretty good feel for where the battle lines have been drawn.

My question is also not whether it's a good idea to get a teacher. My own self-taughtness is not in defiance of the music teachers of the world but because there are only so many hours in the day and money in the budget and I choose to pay for my kids to have instrument lessons rather than myself.

My question is why tablature seems to be so common as a teaching tool.

[PJSShearer]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

My question is why tablature seems to be so common as a teaching tool.

I would question your assertion that TAB si so common as a teaching tool.

I agree with hrodbert696, if your teacher is using TAB to teach you with, then you're better off finding another teacher. TAB will get you off to a start, but it almost immedialtely becomes a dead end - apart from Guitar, no other instrument uses it and if you want to widen your musical experience beyond a guitar band then you need to read notation.

[Matthew_84]

I started out by buying a bass, buying a book and going home and trying to learn from the book. It was boring as hell. I just practiced alternating my fingers, and playing 8th notes from one string to another, no rhythm, and no melody. I was so bored with this practicing that I had to find some tabs to learn how to play some songs. I could have started off playing by ear, but I was new to the instrument, I didn't know scales, and I was still trying to figure out if I even enjoyed playing the instrument. If I didn't quickly learn how to play some of my favourite songs, I probably wouldn't be playing the bass today. I spent the first couple of months ignoring my practicing and learning new songs and playing along to them. It was that experience that made me realize how much fun I had playing the instrument, and how I much I wanted to perfect my technique.

My one bass lesson, was quite different. I went about a year later, when I thought I had a decent technique, but wanted a teacher to study it and help me improve or to talk out any bad habits, and that's all my teacher dd. What I was doing wrong, and exercises to correct it. That was priceless.

But in the very beginning, when the student doesn't know scales, and is trying to see if playing the instrument can be fun, then I think tabs are just fine. Just don't let them become dependant on them. I would get upset if the teacher taught more than a couple tabs. Notation is better, but I think it could add to the workload if brought on too early. Just my opinion

[lenosgood]

I think tab has its uses. It helps me find the notes to play, but as far as learning a song, that's about where the usefulness ends. After I have the notes under my fingers, it's just a question of playing with the CD until I get the song down. If you're an advanced player, tab usefulness goes right out the window, but for someone like me who can read notation but hasn't reached a point of being fluent with it yet, tab can help to figure out a song. Tab can help with finding notes, but it is pretty much useless in finding the groove and rhythm of a song. And yeah, I think that a teacher shouldn't be using them to teach you how to play. Do they teach you tabs in high school band? No, you play from notation. Same thing applies here.

[dave64o]

The only reason my instructor uses tab is because "that's what all the kids want/use". He doesn't like it, but if the kids aren't happy then the parents don't want to pay for lessons so ... it's either do the best he can given the parameters he has to work with or he loses students.

I told him up front that I don't want tab to be part of my lessons at all. It took him a while to get used to that, but he loves when I tell him I'll write something out, or he has to write something out for me to work on. Not only am I his only adult student, and not only am I his only bass student (his main instrument, every other student is guitar), I'm also the only one whose lessons are tab free. He seems to get as much out of my lessons as I do!

It's not a snobbery thing, as if I'm better than people who use it. I certainly can't make that claim. I have used tab and I have to admit that I sometimes still do. However, when it comes to my lessons I'm approaching it from the POV that I'm paying him to help me become a better musician and that's also how he approaches his teaching. And IMHO learning to read standard notation is part of that. It's not that you can't be a competent or even a stellar musician without being able to read. However, I do think that even a stellar musician will become a more complete musician if he can read standard notation.

Again, my choice, and my opinion. And lucky for me I have an instructor who's thankful to give me what I'm paying for!

[wengr]

I play alot, and I teach alot. I am not a fan of tab. I do however believe that it has it's place in the teaching environment. Imo an effective teacher will modify the teaching style and reorganize the flow of information for each individual student. It's also important to utilize music that is of interest to the student in order to help maintain thier level of interest. This is difficult to do without some tab. Tab to me is just a method of guitaristic shorthand, a cheat sheet of sorts. It is of zero use for a student to listen to a teacher for a half hour or so, and then promptly forget the info, leaving them unable to practice for the week. Tab is a tool, and as such it can be used properly or improperly. Only you know if your teacher limits it and uses it effectively, or as an easy lesson cop out.

[Minotauros]

Originally Posted by Intenzity

It has been said a million times by people all over this board, but I will say it again......

Tab is fr@cking retarded.

Yes, I am a tab hater. It is not music, it lacks rhythmic notation ability (unless you add stems, and then at the point..what the hell, just read music) and it is unique to bass/guitar so you will never, ever, EVER get tab from someone who doesn't play guitar (piano, singer, sax, etc) on a gig. If you rely on tab it tells people a lot about how you play.

Don't be so harsh on tab... it dates from before the Baroque period and was an accepted and much used form of musical notation for lute-type instruments, the family to which guitar and (electric) bass belong. It's not newIs standard notation better? For the most part yes, but tab is not the Devil's handiwork. It's one of the tools to get a job done.

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by Elsie8687

I started playing bass quite late in life. Prior to picking up a bass for the first time, I had seven years of formal music training (both instrumental and vocal), sang many types of music as solos and as a member of groups ranging from duets to large choruses, and played rhythm guitar and some keyboard for church praise bands. So I figured, 'how hard can playing the bass be?' and started on the road of self teaching myself. Hit a wall and got frustrated. Then I hooked up with a great teacher. Daylight and dark, my friend. Granted, there are a lot of great bassists around that never paid a teacher......but I guarantee they got lots of help along the way from players with much more experience than they had. Think about it, even PGA golf pros have coaches......So for me it's definitely a +1 on the teacher thing.

As for TABs vs standard notation, my teacher asked early on if I could read TAB. I said, "yes, enough to get by," and he said, "Good, you might need it along the way." However, he teaches me using standard notation. Another point in favor of standard notation is that it gives you timing, meter, dynamics, etc. that TAB doesn't offer. Each has its place in the bassist's kit bag, but don't underestimate the value of being able to read real music along with a working knowledge of the theory behind it.

I agree with everything the above said.
To summarize:
1) Teachers are a good thing; good ones will undeniably make you better.
2) Reading music is a much more valuable skill than reading tab (though it is useful to be able to read tab), especially if you're looking to make money with your playing. I've never been handed music for a production or gig that showed even a hint of tab. Standard notation? Hell yes.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Clarification: my actual question was not what people think of tablature, that's been done and redone and overdone and I have a pretty good feel for where the battle lines have been drawn.

My question is also not whether it's a good idea to get a teacher. My own self-taughtness is not in defiance of the music teachers of the world but because there are only so many hours in the day and money in the budget and I choose to pay for my kids to have instrument lessons rather than myself.

My question is why tablature seems to be so common as a teaching tool.

why not sit in on lessons with your kids...

.tab is more common because at the beginning it is easier to pick up,and i think that a lot of students don't continue lessons for long....music education is something squeezed between soccer practice and the mall.....the determined students usually find a way with or without a teacher....

[Angus]

Tablature is taught because it's easy for both the instructor and the student- it requires zero effort to learn, and means both the teacher and the student can be lazy and still get some information across.

If a teacher insists on teaching tablature, I know for sure that they are not really concerned for my (or my child's or whatever) music education. Reading music and training your ear takes real work and investment from both parties, which should be what you are paying for.

Of course it's silly to make generalities, but I'm happy to right now- teachers who insist on using tablature are not much more than babysitting you or your kids.

But a good teacher will massively accelerate your learning, so find a good one.

[OPBASSMAN1994]

If you were to ask me, I'd say that lessons are NOT essential, and tabs are not such an evil. You learn hand positions, and for a beginner, it's a great way to begin to familiarize yourself with the fretboard. I still use tabs. However, you MUST, MUST learn the notes of the fretboard, a decent amount of theory, different styles. As for teachers, they are great, but many find that their style reflects their teachers. This is just as true for those of us who idolize a particular bassist (guilty as charged... ) But more so when someone teaches you firsthand, in my experience. I'd rather develop my own playing anyway. Then again, if you have no clue where to start, and don't really have anyone musical in your life that can explain a few basic things to you, teachers are necessary.

[OPBASSMAN1994]

It helps to have a good ear if you are teaching yourself. Forgot to mention that.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

My question is why tablature seems to be so common as a teaching tool.

Because of guitar and electric bass.

So far as I know, widespread use of tab is limited to these instruments. It could be that the teacher learned using tab. For such a teacher, going back and learning to read might actually be an uphill battle. There are very few guitarists who can sight-read.

Now, this is not a slam against tab, but it is "easier" in the sense that it offers a quicker learning curve towards what the student wants to do with guitar or electric bass, namely play songs that are typically learned by rote and then played from memory. Tab provides a way to build technique and gain confidence while hopefully learning to play by ear.

Tab doesn't convey every detail of the bass part because it's seldom used for learning tunes by itself without reference to the recorded song. You could say that it's a way to add fingerings to the recording, but the recording is the ultimate source of the bass part.

Reading notation is "easier" if you have different goals, such as playing classical music or jazz, arranging for instruments other than guitar and electric bass, or dealing with gig situations that are managed by using written charts and players who can sight-read.

Different goals, different tools.

[OPBASSMAN1994]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Because of guitar and electric bass.

So far as I know, widespread use of tab is limited to these instruments. It could be that the teacher learned using tab. For such a teacher, going back and learning to read might actually be an uphill battle. There are very few guitarists who can sight-read.

Now, this is not a slam against tab, but it is "easier" in the sense that it offers a quicker learning curve towards what the student wants to do with guitar or electric bass, namely play songs that are typically learned by rote and then played from memory. Tab provides a way to build technique and gain confidence while hopefully learning to play by ear.

Tab doesn't convey every detail of the bass part because it's seldom used for learning tunes by itself without reference to the recorded song. You could say that it's a way to add fingerings to the recording, but the recording is the ultimate source of the bass part.

Reading notation is "easier" if you have different goals, such as playing classical music or jazz, arranging for instruments other than guitar and electric bass, or dealing with gig situations that are managed by using written charts and players who can sight-read.

Different goals, different tools.

Excellently put.

[Mayers]

I think it is because teachers want his students to learn quickly to emulate others.

I learn with tab with my first teacher but I didn't know what I was doing. My second bass teacher and upright bass teacher during my music degree didn't use tab at all. So read normal music notation. I don't know the name of them in english : Sol, Do and Fa (witch should be Treble, Middle and Bass clef ).

I think it also has something to do with the fact that it is for fun so reading normal notation isn't as important as actual playing for that level. If you want to study music... now you need to read normal notation.

[Beginner Bass]

TAB is good for emergencies. Also, I think it also serves another purpose, if used properly. If I'm reading an excerpt out of a book (e.x. "Slap It!"), and I'm having trouble with figuring out my left hand. It can give a good starting point for my fingerings. Will I keep it every time? No. But it's a good place to start from. The same way that when I'm reading a piece on Double Bass for orchestra, it might have some written fingerings. Sometimes there are things you change, but it's usually a good start.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

I'm self-taught myself, and when I was getting launched used to use tabs to figure out songs. Now I usually just figure out a song by ear or get chords and only look up tabs when there's a tricky bit I'm having a hard time figuring out. In other words, I'm not a tab-hater but I'm trying to play more by ear and get less dependent on them. I can read music (learned it playing saxophone as a kid in band) but I'm slow at translating standard notation to a bass fretboard and in practice I find it simpler to go by ear.

All of which is background to something that puzzles me: Whenever a new member comes on asking for advice to get started in bass, two things that always get mentioned are 1) get an actual human teacher and 2) stay away from tabs.

Now, being self-taught, I don't know what bass teachers normally do, but there are a couple of guitar teachers I've known (that my kids go to). When they teach the kids a song, what do they promptly do? Tab out the song with them. Not that I know lots and lots of them, but I have never met a guitar teacher who didn't use tabs to teach. So it seems like, in practice, those two items of advice are going to be contradictory.

So what's going on with teachers? Is there something wrong with all the ones I know? Is there a place for tablature in the teaching process? Is it something to do with teaching kids? A little clarification, especially from those of you who do teach or have had experience with different teachers, would help me assess this.

Again like some posters have mentioned already, it depends on the goals. If somebody just want to learn how to play easy songs on a guitar or a bass (probably 2 of the most popular instruments in pop music) without having to learn the basics of music theory, then it will make them hobbyists without the tools that would make them more complete and functional musicians in most musical situations. Tabs only show where notes are without showing rhythms, harmony and most important, the best logical way to play a part to make it sound right. Most of the time it provides an easy way to play the notes only and people take this for granted.

I think the best parallel I can make is a musician and a carpenter. An hobbyist carpenter can make some repairs without using a ruler and using only his/her eyes as a reference for measurements. Yes it can be done but you might expect the results to be a bit horrible and this person can not really work or help other people without the proper tools and knowledge. I think it's the same with music and learning an instrument. If somebody is serious about music then learning the tools and the language is the best way IMHO.

But tabs can be useful in certain contexts if done properly. I'm about to publish my first bass method and I did use notation and tabs for all the examples. But I did edit all the tabs myself because the program that provides tabs doesn't understand the concept of fingerings, phrasings and sound. So tabs in this context can be use as a fingering guide to make the bass line more efficient in regards of position, sound and phrasing.

The serious teacher and the serious student will use music notation while the hobbyist teacher and the hobbyist student will use tabs.