QUESTION on Circle of Fifths

[Ronny49]

I started studying theory today. I've
always played by ear or tabs, but I
now want to know more. SO...

You know the circle of fifths?
On a bass clef that shows three flats,
it says it is an E flat. Shouldn't it be a
D flat??

When you want to know what key
you are in on a bass clef with three
flats, you look at the last flat and go
up one flat and there is your key!
SO... WHY if the next flat up is a
D flat, they call the key E flat and
there are NO flats on E!!!

Doesn't make much sense to me!

[John Wentzien]

E flat is actually D sharp.

[John Wentzien]

E=Fflat

[Ed Fuqua]

One of the reasons they call it the CIRCLE of fifths is the way you construct key signatures. Start with C major, no flats or sharps, right?
C D E F G A B C, right?
OK, what's the fifth of C major? 1 2 3 4 5 - C D E F G, right?
OK, spell out the notes in G major.

G A B C D E F# G, right? So You go up a fifth, you add 1 sharp. You go up another fifth -1 2 3 4 5 - G A B C D and spell the D major scale , D E F# G A B C# D, how many sharps have you added from teh C major scale? Yup, two.

So if you have 5 sharps, what major key are you in? Well, from C start adding "up a fifths"
C add 1 # get G. C add two sharps get up a fifth from G or D. Add three sharps or up a fifth from D you get A. Add 4 sharps and up a fifth from A and you get E. Add 5 sharps, and up a fifth from E and what major key do you get?

You can either keep going around (and start dealing with enharmonic spellings) to get the flat keys OR you can look at the OTHER direction. Don't go up a fifth, go down a fourth (Circle of Fourths). C major Go DOWN a fourth, C B A G F, right? Spell an F major scale.
F G A Bb C D E F, one flat, right? What's a fourth down from F? If you spell that major scale out, how many flats have you added from C major?

Is that any clearer?

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Ronny49

I started studying theory today. I've
always played by ear or tabs, but I
now want to know more. SO...

You know the circle of fifths?
On a bass clef that shows three flats,
it says it is an E flat. Shouldn't it be a
D flat??

When you want to know what key
you are in on a bass clef with three
flats, you look at the last flat and go
up one flat and there is your key!
SO... WHY if the next flat up is a
D flat, they call the key E flat and
there are NO flats on E!!!

Doesn't make much sense to me!

Ed explained the system to you well - study it.
I'll try to explain where you went wrong...

Three flats on the clef means the piece is IN the key of Eflat major, also written as Eb (BTW: It could also be in Cm - C minor). So it's not AN Eflat, but maybe you just misspelled.

E and Eb are different notes.

It's easy to tell in what key a piece is by looking at the last note of the melody - in most cases it is the tonic AKA key note.
Another method is by counting flats or sharps.

b = F (or Dm), bb = Bb (or Gm) , bbb = Eb (Cm) etc. You'll notice they follow the circle of fourths (see Ed's post).

# = G (or Em), ## = D (or Bm), ### = A (or F#m) etc. With sharps the keys follow the circle of fifths.
Both circles are essentially one circle that you can follow in two directions.

Not sure what exactly you mean by: next flat up...

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

One of the reasons they call it the CIRCLE of fifths is the way you construct key signatures. Start with C major, no flats or sharps, right?
C D E F G A B C, right?
OK, what's the fifth of C major? 1 2 3 4 5 - C D E F G, right?
OK, spell out the notes in G major.

G A B C D E F# G, right? So You go up a fifth, you add 1 sharp. You go up another fifth -1 2 3 4 5 - G A B C D and spell the D major scale , D E F# G A B C# D, how many sharps have you added from teh C major scale? Yup, two.

So if you have 5 sharps, what major key are you in? Well, from C start adding "up a fifths"
C add 1 # get G. C add two sharps get up a fifth from G or D. Add three sharps or up a fifth from D you get A. Add 4 sharps and up a fifth from A and you get E. Add 5 sharps, and up a fifth from E and what major key do you get?

You can either keep going around (and start dealing with enharmonic spellings) to get the flat keys OR you can look at the OTHER direction. Don't go up a fifth, go down a fourth (Circle of Fourths). C major Go DOWN a fourth, C B A G F, right? Spell an F major scale.
F G A Bb C D E F, one flat, right? What's a fourth down from F? If you spell that major scale out, how many flats have you added from C major?

Is that any clearer?

Well said-

If you know on the neck where A B C D E F G notes are..
If you go one fret up ...that note is sharp.
Let's take "C" for example...one fret up is C-Sharp.
one fret down is C-Flat.
This works for all of the notes.

Depending on the "Key" you are in will determine if you call the note B or C-flat...
C-flat and B are the same note on the fingerboard.

[Staccato]

Thanks, Ed!

[ZH_Driver]

I think what you meant in your OP is that in a key with sharps (not flats) the last sharp in the key signature is a semi-toine (half step) below the key (for a major key, i.e. with 2 sharps, the last one is C# which is a half step below D, which is the key).

This doesn't work in keys with flats as you are going the 'other way' around the circle (steps of 4ths down instead of steps of 5ths up). But if you look carefully you'll notice a number of paterns and that can lead you onto a 'rule' for the flats case, I'll let you figure it out.

Another starting point for noticing paterns... look at D, it has a C sharp, i.e. the key that is two before D in the circle is the latest sharp. What is it for A... When you figure all that out, figure out the paterns when you go the other direction for the flats.

If you figure most of it out yourself you'll always remember it.

Hope this helps.

[John Wentzien]

I think he meant in the flat key..
For instance A-flat.. the key signature is Bb-Eb-Ab-Db....
one flat back from Db--would be Ab in the order of the key sig...


Eb would be one flat back from Ab (in order)----Bb-Eb-Ab...and so on

[PJSShearer]

If the Key Signature has no Sharps & Flats, we are in the key of C (or A minor).

We can do a circle of fifths in either direction (up or down) If we go down a fifth we have the Key of F - which has one flat, down another fifth to Bb (2 Flats), down again to Eb (3 Flats), then Ab (4 Flats) and Db (5 Flats). If we go up a fifth we are in the Key of G (1 Sharp), up again to D (2 Sharps), up one more to A (3 Sharps), then E (4 sharps) and B (5 Sharps).

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

One of the reasons they call it the CIRCLE of fifths is the way you construct key signatures. Start with C major, no flats or sharps, right?
C D E F G A B C, right?
OK, what's the fifth of C major? 1 2 3 4 5 - C D E F G, right?
OK, spell out the notes in G major.

G A B C D E F# G, right? So You go up a fifth, you add 1 sharp. You go up another fifth -1 2 3 4 5 - G A B C D and spell the D major scale , D E F# G A B C# D, how many sharps have you added from teh C major scale? Yup, two.

So if you have 5 sharps, what major key are you in? Well, from C start adding "up a fifths"
C add 1 # get G. C add two sharps get up a fifth from G or D. Add three sharps or up a fifth from D you get A. Add 4 sharps and up a fifth from A and you get E. Add 5 sharps, and up a fifth from E and what major key do you get?

You can either keep going around (and start dealing with enharmonic spellings) to get the flat keys OR you can look at the OTHER direction. Don't go up a fifth, go down a fourth (Circle of Fourths). C major Go DOWN a fourth, C B A G F, right? Spell an F major scale.
F G A Bb C D E F, one flat, right? What's a fourth down from F? If you spell that major scale out, how many flats have you added from C major?

Is that any clearer?

Or, to go up in the circle (clock-wise), sharpen the 4th degree of the scale.

C Major: C D E F G A B C
G Major: C D E F# G A B C


To go down in the circle (counter clock-wise), flatten the 7th degree.

C Major: C D E F G A B C
F Major: C D E F G A Bb C

[Ronny49]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Not sure what exactly you mean by: next flat up...

I've been learning from this site. It seems pretty good, though I question some things. But I am learning.

http://www.music-theory-for-musician...ignatures.html

Thanks for all your help people!

I should have stated that I do know the notes on the neck and know the basics. But I am now getting into theory.

[jd858us]

It's great to come up with ways to figure these things out, but everyone's brain is wired a little differently. What works for one person may not translate very well to someone else.

I'd suggest you make some flash cards and simply memorize the key signatures (major and relative minor). Once you know them cold (it won't take too long), you can create your own shortcuts to how they came to be that way. As you begin to work with them, along with the intervals and scales, you'll see the relationships between the keys are mathematical in nature and will present themselves with unfailing predictability.

One good thing: for the rest of your life, these building blocks of tonal harmony will never change. It may be hard now, but not for long if you stick with it.

[Stumbo]

You might want to check these other TB threads that may help you out:

~Theory
Learning basic theory
Intro scale & chord theory
3rds & 7ths?
Theory links list
Theory (from the DB side of TB)

Learning "modes"
Reason for modes
Using modes
Key signatures/Circle of 5ths/Cycle of 4ths
Circle/Cycle of 5ths/4ths (spreadsheet format)

~Instructional materials
Looking for the Bass "Bible"
"Best" theory/harmony book
TB Book Links