Question concerning Cycle's

[bmb73]

I was wondering, if I am playing a song or creating a bassline in the key of Bb, must the next chord be an Eb, or can I go to an Ab directly if I like the sound?

I understand the purpose of the Cycle's, just wondering if there is a rule stating you "must go from here to here". As long as the chord is included in the Cycle is that okay?

Hope the question was clear as mud, because I think I just confused myself lol.

[TheBasicBassist]

If you like the sound, you can do anything you want.

Theory is called such for a reason, otherwise it would be called, "music facts."

[bmb73]

Originally Posted by TheBasicBassist

If you like the sound, you can do anything you want.

Theory is called such for a reason, otherwise it would be called, "music facts."

Good point, I just want to be able to have a firm grasp on it. Now that I have, gotta remember it is just theory like you said.

[TheBasicBassist]

If you want to work on unusual chord progressions, though. I would definitely work on getting a jazz Real Book, and work your way through that; you'll build a very strong harmonic, as well as melodic vocabulary through that. I hope this helps, bmb.

[bmb73]

It does help, I have a Jazz Improvisers Handbook and have been working on songs through that. Doing All Blues right now.

Thanks very much for the replies by the way.

[Basshoofd]

Theory = facts, what you mean is that music theory aren't RULES. Theory is all about understanding how everything works and why things sound the way they sound. If a chord progression sounds good to you, it sounds good! Theory is never meant as a rule, just guidelines for when you're stuck.

[lidesnowi]

The only rule is, if YOU think it sounds right then it is right!
But its not bad to know the "rules" before" braking" them!
The music harmony theory is a great tool to analyze harmonic progressions!
Check out the Nicolas Slonimsky's book thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns!

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by bmb73

I was wondering, if I am playing a song or creating a bassline in the key of Bb, must the next chord be an Eb, or can I go to an Ab directly if I like the sound?

I understand the purpose of the Cycle's, just wondering if there is a rule stating you "must go from here to here". As long as the chord is included in the Cycle is that okay?

Hope the question was clear as mud, because I think I just confused myself lol.

There are some rules, however, they should be taken as guidelines, and as mentioned the only set in stone rule is; "If it sounds good it's good".

Here are some of the guidelines:

Notes and chords made from the same scale are going to sound OK with each other. Every note from one scale is going to sound good with every other note from that scale. Every chord made from that scale is going to sound good with each other. Following the Cycle is a safe approach, but, you have other options. What is the cycle? By cycle if we are talking of the circle of 5th and or 4ths, they are some things the old guys put down on paper years ago to help them remember what can be done. Of course that is IMO.

Let's talk about chord harmony. If we let the chords harmonize with each other good things happen.

1/ The melody line and the chord line should share like notes during the song. If the chord has some of the melody's notes in it's make up the two lines will sound good together. So harmonization enters the picture. Here is a chart of the chords that can be used to harmonize a specific note in a melody:

If you are trying to harmonize the ........
1 degree of the scale try I, IV, vi or ii7 chords of that key, as they will have the 1st degree note in their makeup.
2 degree of the scale try V, ii7, iii7 chords of that key.
3 degree of the scale try I, vi, iii chords of that key.
4 degree of the scale try IV, ii, v7 chords of that key.
5 degree of the scale try V, I, iii chords of that key.
6 degree of the scale try IV, ii, vi chords of that key.
7 degree of the scale try V7, iii, Imaj7 chords of that key.

Following this chart you get harmonization. How much harmonization do you need? Well following the chord progression and taking for granted the person that decided this song needed this specific chord at this time in the song is fairly safe and just one note - the root note - would get harmonization. Two notes probably better. OK you've got harmonization with just the root, what else is needed? Little thing called movement.

2/ The chord progression moves the phrase, verse, etc. forward in the music. For example. A verse starts out at rest, then starts moving toward a conclusion and then returns to rest. A I IV V I progression let's this happen, i.e. Start with rest using the I chord, move to the IV chord to start the process (tension) when you have discussed the thought enough you bring the thought to climax with the V7 chord, then quickly return to rest by resolving back to the tonic I chord. BUT, that is not your only choice. Yes, following the cycle is a good safe thing to do right at first. Here is a little more.

Chords like to move certain ways, if we let them good things happen, however as mentioned we do not have to let them do what they want.

• The I chord can move any where in the progression it wants to. It is the tonal center of the progression, as such you should end with the I tonic. Not really necessary you start with the I tonic, however, if you do not end with the I tonic your phrase is not resolved and begs for that I chord. Perhaps you want resolution to bring you into the chorus by having the I chord being the first chord in the chorus....... You decide how you want the song to progress.
• The ii chord is a minor sub-dominant chord and it likes to move to a dominant chord, if we let it good things happen, however, we do not have to let it -- it will sound OK with any of the chords made from that specific scale.
• The iii chord is a minor mediant chord. It likes to move elsewhere as in a turn-a-round iii-vi-ii-V7-I the iii also likes to drag the vi with it on that movement.
• The IV chord is a major sub-dominant chord. Remember the ii was a minor sub-dominant chord as both have the same function they can sub for each other. Their task in life is to go to a dominant chord.
• The V chord is the major dominant chord. It's task in life is to go to the tonic I chord. The V7 chord wants to get there right now.
• The vi chord is a minor chord, in fact the relative minor chord. It's task in life is to move to a sub-dominant chord.
• The vii chord is the diminished chord. Now vii is also a dominant chord and it wants to get to the tonic chord like the V or V7, however, being diminished it also likes to lead other places. The vii and the iii make a good selection if you want to take a more leisurely route back to the I tonic, i.e. viidim-iii-vi-ii-V7-I.

3/ So, you have two items to take into account, harmonization and movement. It's a balancing act. Your bass line should harmonize and have movement to the next chord. Just roots harmonize, but, do little with movement. Now a walking bass line brings in the movement to the next chord. Both are a study in themselves that can take years.

Google:
How to harmonize a melody.
How to build a walking bass line.


Have fun.

[bmb73]

Really great info there Malcolm. You already answered another question I had concerning diatonic harmony throught a scale,.i.e. why one chord is major and another is minor

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by bmb73

Really great info there Malcolm. You already answered another question I had concerning diatonic harmony through a scale,.i.e. why one chord is major and another is minor

Just in case, a chord is major because it has a major 3rd and a chord is minor because it has a minor 3rd aka b3.

C scale has these notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B
Stack every other one to get the chords made from that scale:.
C, E, G, B All those notes are found in the C major scale so all of them are natural notes, aka R-3-5-7 and that spelling makes the Cmaj7 chord.
D, F, A, C Now in the D major scale you have a F# and a C# so those two notes have been flatted and in doing so you have a Dm7 chord with a spelling of R-b3-5-b7 chord. The b3 is a dead give-a-way that this is a minor chord. The b7 indicates this is also a m7 chord. http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

For grins, stack the rest of the notes in the C major scale and see how the chords are made.
E, G, B, D -- look at the E major scale. It has a G# and a D# so this chord flats the G# to G (b3) and the D# to D (b7). It's spelling is R-b3-5-b7 also. Can you use that as a generic bass line for minor seventh chords? Keep going. I bet the next chord is going to be a major chord...... Wouldn't it be great if it's spelling was also a R-3-5-7 like the Cmaj7 chord. Sure would make maj7 chord bass lines simplier.

Have fun.