Question on ii V7 i chord progression

[fearceol]

Hi guys,
I'm learning walking bass lines. Doing OK so far, but this chord progression has me a bit confused. I'm obviously missing, or not getting something.

The lesson in in the key of Am. The first bar is in Bm7, which is fine as it is the ii. The next bar (the V), has me confused. It is in E7(b9). So the key is Am (Aoelian). The "E" is ok as it is the 5th of "A", but the 5th mode of Aeolian is Phrygian, which is minor. Maybe I am mixing up my chords and modes ??

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by fearceol

Hi guys,
I'm learning walking bass lines. Doing OK so far, but this chord progression has me a bit confused. I'm obviously missing, or not getting something.

The lesson in in the key of Am. The first bar is in Bm7, which is fine as it is the ii. The next bar (the V), has me confused. It is in E7(b9). So the key is Am (Aoelian). The "E" is ok as it is the 5th of "A", but the 5th mode of Aeolian is Phrygian, which is minor. Maybe I am mixing up my chords and modes ??

You may be mixing up Major and Minor keys - but the 5th is always a dominant 7th..?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by fearceol

Hi guys,
I'm learning walking bass lines. Doing OK so far, but this chord progression has me a bit confused. I'm obviously missing, or not getting something.

The lesson in in the key of Am. The first bar is in Bm7, which is fine as it is the ii. The next bar (the V), has me confused. It is in E7(b9).

When using a minor scales the V is often made Major or Major7, as in the Melodic minor scale.

So the key is Am (Aoelian). The "E" is ok as it is the 5th of "A", but the 5th mode of Aeolian is Phrygian, which is minor. Maybe I am mixing up my chords and modes ??

Why does the progression use Am instead of A? Second question; Not sure what difference Phrygian makes. Yes Phrygian is minor and the fifth chord is major. This has to do with taking the natural minor scale into melodic minor which changes the fifth chord to major.

Why do you even have to use a mode name? Naming then with mode names is OK if it helps you understand, however, here it seems to be confusing. I never got into using mode names for chords. Just something extra that I found of little value. Do as you think best.

Now why does the song use Am instead of the A chord? Notice - you have the progression as ii V7 i -- the i is lower case thus you have a minor scale/key. If the i was I then it would be a major scale. As ii, V7, I the upper case I indicates the progression is major. Your study used the i thus Am is appropriate.

You may need to look at the three minor scales, natural, harmonic and melodic and the chord structure used for each, for this to clear up. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=17622

Did that help? Hope so.

[Freddels]

You should really begin with learning these in a major key first.

The E7(b9) chord would use either the 5th mode of Harmonic minor or the Half-Whole Diminished scale.

Melodic minor would have the F#. The play b/w the Bm7 and the E7(b9) is that F note. F# and F natural.

[krueckschloss]

It's either Bm7 and Em7(b9), which would mean that you're in A aeolian.
Or it's Bm7 and E7(9), which would mean you're in A melodic minor.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Originally Posted by fearceol

The lesson in in the key of Am. The first bar is in Bm7, which is fine as it is the ii. The next bar (the V), has me confused. It is in E7(b9). So the key is Am (Aoelian). The "E" is ok as it is the 5th of "A", but the 5th mode of Aeolian is Phrygian, which is minor. Maybe I am mixing up my chords and modes ??

That's why the harmonic minor scale was created. The natural minor scale (or Aeolian) has no leading tone since there's a whole step between the seventh degree and the tonic. To solve that problem, the seventh degree was raised and that allowed the scale to have a leading tone, which is necessary for a chord with a "dominant" quality to exist within the tonality. Then, the A harmonic minor scale is like follows:

A - B - C - D - E - F - G# - A

And the chord that can be created on the fifth degree is an E major (plus 7b9 if you stack two more thirds on it). From the modes perspective, the scale that starts from the first degree of the harmonic minor scale is called "Phrygian dominant".

Hope this helps.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Originally Posted by fearceol

The lesson in in the key of Am. The first bar is in Bm7, which is fine as it is the ii.

On a minor key, a m7(b5) chord as ii is best instead of a m7 chord.

[fearceol]

Thanks guys for all your helpful replies. Things are beginning to make sense now. My theory knowledge is fairly basic (as you can see !! ).

MalcolmAmos : That link was very helpful.

[Stumbo]

Here are some links you may want to check out:

~Theory
Learning basic theory
Intro scale & chord theory
3rds & 7ths?
ii-V-I
Theory links list
Theory (from the DB side of TB)

Learning "modes"
Reason for modes
Using modes
Putting it all together (scales/modes)

Key signatures/Circle of 5ths/Cycle of 4ths
Circle/Cycle of 5ths/4ths (spreadsheet format)

[fearceol]

Thanks Stumbo. I'll start reading up on those immediatly.

[Elrend]

As far as I know you'll need to use a phrygian dominant scale, which is phrygian with a raised third (the fifth mode of the melodic minor scale)

[fearceol]

Thanks. I know I maybe should not be getting bogged down with mode names. I just need to clear up a few things.

So, the Aoelian is the 5th of the Dorian. If I was to play the 5 chord of Dorian, what would the natural minor become in this case ?

[mathieu.mcconne]

Funny how I just learned this today, but the three basic minor scales are Aeolian (or Pure or Natural) which is, is relation to it's major parallel scale, 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. It comes from the major modes. However just like Alvaro Martín Gómez A. said, with a b7, you don't have a tritone in the dominant (V) chord, so they raised the seventh note to make it 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 in order to have a tritone that resolves to the I chord. Then you have the melodic minor, which is, in classical music, 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7, going up and 7,6,5,4,b3,2,1 going down. The melodic minor is to enhance the natural attraction towards the octave, going up, and the third going down.

However ! On a minor ii-V-i, which should be ii-7(b5)-V7(b9)-i-7, you can play the Jewish scale, or the 5th mode of harmonic minor, with a structure of 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6,b7, or the diminished scale, which is a succession of minor thirds.

Hope this help to clarify the minor scales, because there seems to be confusion on this forum.

[krueckschloss]

Originally Posted by fearceol

So, the Aoelian is the 5th of the Dorian. If I was to play the 5 chord of Dorian, what would the natural minor become in this case ?

I'm not completely sure what you're asking. Aeolian is the VI of Major, so if you're in Dorian and want to play V, you're in Aeolian e.g. regular minor 1 - 3b - 5 triad.

It might be that you don't yet completely understand how scales and modes work. PM me and maybe I can explain if you're in doubt.

Regards,

Karol

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by krueckschloss

It might be that you don't yet completely understand how scales and modes work. PM me and maybe I can explain if you're in doubt.

Regards,

Karol

I think you are correct here Karol. I'll read up on the information and links given here first. Then if I'm still confused, I will take you up on your kind offer.

[phxlbrmpf]

Originally Posted by fearceol

The lesson in in the key of Am. The first bar is in Bm7, which is fine as it is the ii.

But shouldn't the Bm7 chord be B diminshed 7 (I can never memorize the symbol for that) if the key is indeed A minor? Bm7 strikes me as a slightly odd chord to use in a lesson about A minor, especially if it's used as the first chord. Otherwise it could function like a secondary dominant or something. Like in "Against all Odds" by Phil Collins, I think.

[kraigo]

Thanks for the link. I don't know if it will help the OP, but it will help me.

KO

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

When using a minor scales the V is often made Major or Major7, as in the Melodic minor scale.

Why does the progression use Am instead of A? Second question; Not sure what difference Phrygian makes. Yes Phrygian is minor and the fifth chord is major. This has to do with taking the natural minor scale into melodic minor which changes the fifth chord to major.

Why do you even have to use a mode name? Naming then with mode names is OK if it helps you understand, however, here it seems to be confusing. I never got into using mode names for chords. Just something extra that I found of little value. Do as you think best.

Now why does the song use Am instead of the A chord? Notice - you have the progression as ii V7 i -- the i is lower case thus you have a minor scale/key. If the i was I then it would be a major scale. As ii, V7, I the upper case I indicates the progression is major. Your study used the i thus Am is appropriate.

You may need to look at the three minor scales, natural, harmonic and melodic and the chord structure used for each, for this to clear up. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=17622

Did that help? Hope so.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Originally Posted by phxlbrmpf

But shouldn't the Bm7 chord be B diminshed 7 (I can never memorize the symbol for that) if the key is indeed A minor? Bm7 strikes me as a slightly odd chord to use in a lesson about A minor, especially if it's used as the first chord. Otherwise it could function like a secondary dominant or something. Like in "Against all Odds" by Phil Collins, I think.

Exactly. That's why I said...

Originally Posted by Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

On a minor key, a m7(b5) chord as ii is best instead of a m7 chord.

Basically, Bm7 (B - D - F# - A) implies the use of the melodic minor scale, which isn't as "strong" (lacking a better term) harmony-wise as the harmonic minor scale. The melodic minor scale was created because long ago, any augmented/diminished interval was strictly prohibited for creating melodies (that's one of the foundations of scholastic counterpoint) and the harmonic minor has an augmented second between its sixth and seventh degrees (F - G# in A minor). To solve that problem, the sixth degree was raised, so the augmented second becomes a major second. That made the scale suitable for creating melodies.

But that solution raised another situation: The second tetrachord of the melodic minor scale (E - F# - G# - A in A minor) has the same exact intervallic relationship as a major tetrachord (whole step - whole step - half step) and that reduced the minor "flavor" of the scale. As a solution for this, it was decided to remove those accidentals from the scale when descending. So, in A minor, we have:

A - B - C - D - E - F# - G# - A - G (natural) - F (natural) - E - D - C - B - A

This one is known as the mixed melodic minor scale (*) since in modern music (or in jazz improvisation, at least), the melodic minor scale is usually played the same (with altered sixth and seventh degrees) in both directions.

*: Well, actually I'm translating from Spanish since the term "escala menor melódica mixta" does exist. Don't know if it's used in English.

[Richard Lindsey]

I would like to caution against taking too rigid an approach to natural vs harmonic vs melodic (ascending or descending) minor. Because we commonly practice the scales separately, we tend to think of them as separate minor tonalities, but in many if not most cases, this is probably a mistake. Sure, there are cases in which a piece is strictly in one or another, but very often what's actually happening is that you have a single minor tonality that uses elements of all of these where necessary. HaVIC5 had some excellent comments on this elsewhere. Here's one:

"The composite minor is a rather complicated and abstract subject, I know, but once you start getting the hang of it, it's not that bad. One way you can think of it is there actually is only ONE minor scale where at certain times you can change the sixth and seventh degrees for varying purposes. This is what classical composers and theorists did - when you needed a dominant-tonic relationship you changed the b7 to a natural 7, or the all-important leading tone in tonal harmony, and created a dominant chord. This change was created for harmonic reasons - thus "harmonic minor". When you wanted to create a nice linear line that spaned from the sixth to the seventh and wanted to avoid the interval of an augmented 2nd (from b6 to 7, generally considered very difficult to sing), you'd made the sixth natural for a more linear melodic shape, thus "melodic minor". This same concept translated to jazz harmony, but instead of thinking in terms of chromatic alterations of the sixth and seventh, you started thinking in terms of harmonic alterations based upon three different diatonic systems."

So for this reason, a Bm7 is not necessarily "wrong" in A minor; it's a matter of what you're intending to do with it. And the use of the major 6 and 7 in minor keys is not necessarily always limited to ascending lines, either, regardless of the fact that that's commonly how we practice the scales.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by mathieu.mcconne

Funny how I just learned this today, but the three basic minor scales are Aeolian (or Pure or Natural) which is, is relation to it's major parallel scale, 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. It comes from the major modes. However just like Alvaro Martín Gómez A. said, with a b7, you don't have a tritone in the dominant (V) chord, so they raised the seventh note to make it 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 in order to have a tritone that resolves to the I chord.

It's not really primarily about the tritone, because there is no tritone unless you add a 7th to the basic chord, and the dominant function exists and functions perfectly well even if you never use 7th chords at all. It's really about creating a leading tone to the tonic in conjunctio with strong root movement. Adding the 7th to the dominant chord strengthens the resolution but doesn't change its nature, because what made the V-i resolution work (strong root movement plus leading tone) was already in place.