A Question for Old School Jazz Cats

Bassman8416 · #1 12-07-2009, 05:13 PM

Hey Folks I am a 48 year old bass player that recently returned to school to study Jazz...in NYC at CCNY. It is a very good program. I find it difficult keeping up with the young guns though. I did not play Jazz all these years . I played Grateful Dead, Allman brothers. Improv, but not as deep harmonically as Bebop etc.(not even close) The problem is, most of these students really better than me and also have really listened to the language longer than I have. I Love the language and tradition of this amazing art form. It just seems like this info is not getting ingrained, because of the pace and amount of material we are required to learn. I am wondering if I would be better off studying privately with someone and practicing more instead of commuting 3 hrs a day and also taking non music courses and writing papers. I also feel I don't quite retain info like I was when I was 20(might be from the Grateful Dead concerts and activities...LOL!!!) and feel I need to slow down a little.
Thanks for reading this and I appreciate any feedback from you.
Peace.
Craig

VroomVroom · #2 12-07-2009, 06:02 PM

This can definitely be daunting material. I think your question would be one best presented to a professor or advisor at your school. Honestly, it seems like you've already thought this through quite a bit, and I applaud your effort at gauging your current status. All the best to you...

MalcolmAmos · #3 12-07-2009, 09:15 PM

No don't quite just yet. I finished my degree (BS in Business Administration) 27 years after I took my first college class, took awhile to get back into the flow. Most of my study was done at 30,000 feet going between work assignments. Rearranging your time will not be easy, but, hang in I bet it will get better. Plus if you quit you'll have to go back to work.......

Ed Fuqua · #4 12-07-2009, 09:24 PM

Well, it depends on what you want to get out of it. Studying privately doesn't get you a piece of paper. But nobody on the stand has ever asked to see my diploma. Studying privately is good at covering material at YOUR pace, cause its all one on one. If you have a good teacher, they will be able to approach conveying specific skill sets and knowledge in a way that lines up with how you learn things, classroom/ensemble kinds of situations have to adapt to the middle - not fast enough for those who pick things up quickly and too fast for those who don't. Plus classroom/ensemble type situations built on semester formats tend to teach easily quantifiable "units" that can be somewhat objectively graded. But if you get a B- in ear training, what does that really mean? When you get on the stand, you'll only be able to hear 82% of the harmony? A private teacher will stick with the goal and approach it in many different ways until you get 100% of what you're working on.

Bassman8416 · #5 12-07-2009, 09:57 PM

I am certainly not looking for a piece of paper. My goal is to be a better musician/bass player. That being said, I appreciate the insight from all. I am relating to what Ed is saying though. Are you accepting students Mr. Fuqua?

**Freddels** · #6 12-08-2009, 05:04 AM

Before I went to Berklee years ago I thought Spiro Gyra and Weather Report were jazz. I was quickly schooled. What I did was listen to as much jazz as possible which is much easier today with satellite radio and iPods, etc. This helps with learning walking bass. Also, drill the chord tones into your head. Pick out a couple of tunes that are being played at school and work on those. Start with just the roots and try to get the tune in your ear. Don't get caught up in all the extra ii-V's that are there, just get the basic tune down. Then add the 5th and 3rds. Trust your ears! If you've been playing Allman Bros, etc. for years then I'm sure you've been learning by ear. Trust those ears.

Also, Todd Johnson's walking bass program is pretty good to get your head around walking bass.

TrickDog · #7 12-08-2009, 07:40 AM

I guess I'll be first to mention her. Carol Kaye. www.carolkaye.com
Check out her site, forum and teaching materials. She will personally answer your questions. She is opinionated and passionate. Despite any controversy surrounding her, she has 'been there, done that' in the musical world - including Jazz. She knows how to teach and play. Some love her, others...

I am 54 and have been playing bass in various rock bands since I was 13. Her methods and materials have worked wonders for me since I started studying about 6 months ago. She stresses jazz, jazz, and more jazz.

Good luck and have fun with whatever choice you make.

dalkowski · #8 12-08-2009, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Well, it depends on what you want to get out of it. Studying privately doesn't get you a piece of paper. But nobody on the stand has ever asked to see my diploma. Studying privately is good at covering material at YOUR pace, cause its all one on one. If you have a good teacher, they will be able to approach conveying specific skill sets and knowledge in a way that lines up with how you learn things, classroom/ensemble kinds of situations have to adapt to the middle - not fast enough for those who pick things up quickly and too fast for those who don't. Plus classroom/ensemble type situations built on semester formats tend to teach easily quantifiable "units" that can be somewhat objectively graded. But if you get a B- in ear training, what does that really mean? When you get on the stand, you'll only be able to hear 82% of the harmony? A private teacher will stick with the goal and approach it in many different ways until you get 100% of what you're working on.

This. ^^^

I'm 46 and played rock exclusively since HS jazz band. I don't have the time, $$$ or inclination to go to school, but I DO want to learn jazz. I met a great teacher last summer and have been studying with him since. He's a Berklee alum and he's loading me up with theory, walking, modes, etc. But it's at my pace and tailored to my individual goals. I love it.

Ed Fuqua · #9 12-08-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassman8416

I am certainly not looking for a piece of paper. My goal is to be a better musician/bass player. That being said, I appreciate the insight from all. I am relating to what Ed is saying though. Are you accepting students Mr. Fuqua?

I highly recommend my teacher, Joe Solomon. I had been playing professionally for more than 20 years when I started studying with Joe, I can honestly say I have made more progress in the last 11 than in the first 20.

http://www.joesolomonbassworkshop.com/

Bassman8416 · #10 12-08-2009, 09:39 AM

Would he teach an electric bassist?...I was going to ask you that as well. Thanks Ed.

Ed Fuqua · #11 12-08-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassman8416

Would he teach an electric bassist?...I was going to ask you that as well. Thanks Ed.

Yes, he has a couple of students who play electric.

Jim Campbell · #12 12-08-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassman8416

Hey Folks I am a 48 year old bass player that recently returned to school to study Jazz...in NYC at CCNY. It is a very good program. I find it difficult keeping up with the young guns though. I did not play Jazz all these years . I played Grateful Dead, Allman brothers. Improv, but not as deep harmonically as Bebop etc.(not even close) The problem is, most of these students really better than me and also have really listened to the language longer than I have. I Love the language and tradition of this amazing art form. It just seems like this info is not getting ingrained, because of the pace and amount of material we are required to learn. I am wondering if I would be better off studying privately with someone and practicing more instead of commuting 3 hrs a day and also taking non music courses and writing papers. I also feel I don't quite retain info like I was when I was 20(might be from the Grateful Dead concerts and activities...LOL!!!) and feel I need to slow down a little.
Thanks for reading this and I appreciate any feedback from you.
Peace.
Craig

before you quit and forfeit the dough,have a talk with the faculty and see if they agree that you are in over your head or if this is common and the next segment may be an ace for you.....maybe if you hack it out a while longer things may come together ....

Bassman8416 · #13 12-08-2009, 09:54 AM

Very Cool Ed. I see on your profile that you dig Sonny Dallas.
I met Sonny back in school when I was 19 years old. He was adjunct faculty at Suffolk Community College on Long Island. He was a very cool guy. I took a few lessons and hung with him a lot, what a joy to hear his stories. Coolest of cool people.

Bruce Lindfield · #14 12-08-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassman8416

Hey Folks I am a 48 year old bass player that recently returned to school to study Jazz...in NYC at CCNY. It is a very good program. I find it difficult keeping up with the young guns though. I did not play Jazz all these years . I played Grateful Dead, Allman brothers. Improv, but not as deep harmonically as Bebop etc.(not even close) The problem is, most of these students really better than me and also have really listened to the language longer than I have. I Love the language and tradition of this amazing art form. It just seems like this info is not getting ingrained, because of the pace and amount of material we are required to learn. I am wondering if I would be better off studying privately with someone and practicing more instead of commuting 3 hrs a day and also taking non music courses and writing papers. I also feel I don't quite retain info like I was when I was 20(might be from the Grateful Dead concerts and activities...LOL!!!) and feel I need to slow down a little.
Thanks for reading this and I appreciate any feedback from you.
Peace.
Craig

I was/am in a similar situation and age to you, a few years ago - I think a full-time course might be a bit much and what I have done is a mixture of Saturday Jazz classes at the local University, some private lessons and a yearly Summer School - where it is a week or 2 weeks intensive playing with other people!

I have had my butt kicked at the latter by 17 year-olds - but in a way that inspires me and encourages me - although I can see how if that was happening every week, I might not feel the same...?

mstott25 · #15 12-08-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I highly recommend my teacher, Joe Solomon. I had been playing professionally for more than 20 years when I started studying with Joe, I can honestly say I have made more progress in the last 11 than in the first 20.

http://www.joesolomonbassworkshop.com/

Ed,
You and Joe ever talk about his playing/experience with Warne Marsh?

Ed Fuqua · #16 12-08-2009, 10:20 AM

Yeah, some. But mostly I get my ass kicked by ear training.

Bassman8416 · #17 12-08-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

before you quit and forfeit the dough,have a talk with the faculty and see if they agree that you are in over your head or if this is common and the next segment may be an ace for you.....maybe if you hack it out a while longer things may come together ....

Its really not about the dough or getting A's.....I probably(maybe a B+ in one)will be Acing all of the classes...I just want to slow down and digest whats being taught at such a fast rate....and like Bruce said , getting my butt kicked by an 18 year old has been good and inspiring, but at the same time its getting tiresome as well. But I will talk to faculty...thanks. I do feel I am more into studying privately at MY own pace and needs, instead of the broad curriculum method.

Bassman8416 · #18 04-08-2010, 10:44 AM

Hey,
I decided to bite the bullet and hang in there and keep trying.
I am glad to do have done so. Its tough, there is so many gifted players around, but I guess thats a good thing. I am working on dropping my ego and concentrating on learning. The bebop language is not a simple one to learn for me. I am not the gifted person I once thought I was, it takes a lot of hard work and patience to learn this art. That being said , it seems when I think I am getting somewhere, I get humbled instantly!!!!Example: I tried to take a solo in I Remember You....ended up like a deer in the headlights...
I really struggle with 7-3 resolutions and connecting tones and playing nice melodic lines as opposed to chord tone patterns....any advice or things to work on and practice?

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Bruce Lindfield · #19 04-08-2010, 10:53 AM

I'm glad you kept up and took the trouble to update us!

I'm sure others will have more ideas, but I think the only real answer is to listen and try to play what you hear - so practicing that might be trying to play solos over things like Aebersold play-alongs - helped me?

One Jazz pro I had lessons with said that for a bass solo, he thought it was good to start with pentatonic scales and build up from there - but not to try to go too far away from the chords or you will get lost and maybe lose the rest of the band!

I'm not sure what others think about it - but there have been quite a few threads on this kind of thing and you could look through some of them. Anyway - glad to hear it's working out!

GM60466 · #20 04-08-2010, 10:54 AM

As a former teacher, I can say that schools for people who want to learn from books. The best way to develop your own style is by playing with other cats who dig your groove as much as you dig their's. Look for these guys and lock up with them.
Mingus used to say that Jazz was just life set to music. You gotta live it.