Question regarding basic chord structure

[Mahumadi]

I understand 1-3-5 is the first, third, and fifth of each notes major scale. I recently decided to learn the fret board and have been perplexed as to why my 3rd and 5th in G is right on with G B D. However, when I finger the shape with A as my root I am left with A C# E.

Does that mean there is no natural C in the key of A, but there is a C#?

[Cap'n Video]

That is correct. In the key of A major, there are three sharps: F#, C# and G#. This means the entire scale is A B C# D E F# G# A. The major scale takes the same form no matter what key you are playing in. From first to second is a whole step (2 frets). The same for second to third. From third to fourth is a half step (1 fret). After that is whole step, whole step, whole step, half step, which brings you to the octave of the scale. As you play this form starting on different notes, you are playing through the different key signatures.

Incidentally, if you start on the sixth of the scale and play the same notes as the major scale (in the example above you would start on the F# and play F# G# A B C# D E F#), you would be playing the original scale's relative minor scale, or key of F# minor.

[Mahumadi]

So, the relative minor starts on the 6? That would answer another question thats been killing me, a simple way to work out the relative minor of each key. Awesome.

[TheFrogPrince]

I wouldn't worry too much about knowing all the exact details of scales, modes and such at first but you're right in this case. I say that because it will end up bogging you down when it comes time to play. I know that from experience.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Mahumadi

I understand 1-3-5 is the first, third, and fifth of each notes major scale. I recently decided to learn the fret board and have been perplexed as to why my 3rd and 5th in G is right on with G B D. However, when I finger the shape with A as my root I am left with A C# E.

Does that mean there is no natural C in the key of A, but there is a C#?

It just happens that 1-3-5 corresponds to a major scale. In reality, the 3 and 5 are intervallic relationships above the root, 1.

To take your example, 1-3-5 in built off of the tonic in G major is G-B-D. If you build a triad off of the second step, the supertonic (A), the 1-3-5 notes would be A-Cnatural-E because C# is not in the key of G major. The members of that chord in relation to the root are still called 3 and 5, but now the quality of the 3rd is a minor interval.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

I wouldn't worry too much about knowing all the exact details of scales, modes and such at first but you're right in this case. I say that because it will end up bogging you down when it comes time to play. I know that from experience.

wow. I couldn't disagree me. I feel you are very misinformed.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

I wouldn't worry too much about knowing all the exact details of scales, modes and such at first but you're right in this case. I say that because it will end up bogging you down when it comes time to play. I know that from experience.

No, actually it won't. I know this from experience. The only way this could happen is if you allow it to happen to you, in which you need to find someone to help you out of your rut.

[TheFrogPrince]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

wow. I couldn't disagree me. I feel you are very misinformed.

With respect because people argue way too much on here, how does knowing the sixth position of the major scale is this and the fourth is that? You don't really think of positions of the scale when you actually play. You don't use strictly this or that when playing the chords. You think in shapes, arpeggios or whatever you call personally call them and you think about what is coming next Dm7 goes to G7 etc etc.

That's basically like saying 'I need to know what is happening to my peice of beef on a molecular level' when you want to make a steak. You should know that you need X temperature for a properly cooked steak, that it should look and feel just so. Maybe you know a certain rub or marinade to make it you special dish. Maybe you know something about repairing your stove if something happens.

However, what practical application does knowing the chemistry of cooking a steak have to cooking it. Just because you can't explain exactly what's happening doesn't mean you can't cook a really good steak. It doesn't mean you're ignorant either. You know your chords, you know the circle of fourths and inversions and such. You want to cook a steak (play music) not be a chemist, unless perhaps that's your goal.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

With respect because people argue way too much on here, how does knowing the sixth position of the major scale is this and the fourth is that? You don't really think of positions of the scale when you actually play. You don't use strictly this or that when playing the chords. You think in shapes, arpeggios or whatever you call personally call them and you think about what is coming next Dm7 goes to G7 etc etc.

That's basically like saying 'I need to know what is happening to my peice of beef on a molecular level' when you want to make a steak. You should know that you need X temperature for a properly cooked steak, that it should look and feel just so. Maybe you know a certain rub or marinade to make it you special dish. Maybe you know something about repairing your stove if something happens.

However, what practical application does knowing the chemistry of cooking a steak have to cooking it. Just because you can't explain exactly what's happening doesn't mean you can't cook a really good steak. It doesn't mean you're ignorant either. You know your chords, you know the circle of fourths and inversions and such. You want to cook a steak (play music) not be a chemist, unless perhaps that's your goal.

You obviously don't have to know that stuff to be good (even though it will help in the long run), but saying that it will slow you down musically (as you said in your first post) is simply foolish. Again, something like this can only mess with your head if you allow it to mess with your head, and if such a thing happens it only means you need to find someone that can help you learn it all.

[TheFrogPrince]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

You obviously don't have to know that stuff to be good (even though it will help in the long run), but saying that it will slow you down musically (as you said in your first post) is simply foolish. Again, something like this can only mess with your head if you allow it to mess with your head, and if such a thing happens it only means you need to find someone that can help you learn it all.

There seems to be this notion that knowing every scale and mode and position will make you better. I still can't figure out why people think that way. I can't remember EVER hearing any musician from Buddy Guy to Iron Maiden to The Count Basie Jazz orchestra and Charlie Parker's group talking about modes. They spoke about chords, keys and related things. Why even learn something if you'll rarely or never use it.

For example, Joe Pass in his instructional tapes was talking about 'C6/9' this or 'Cm7+9' that and not degrees or positions of scales. He did pretty good with good old colour chords, substitutions, arpeggios, the circle of fourths/chord cycles and so on. You obviously need to know something to do all that theory-wise. Also, despite not being a walking theory grimoire, he knew his trade very well and could play circles around people who apparently had memorized the big book of every bit of theory information. You can't say he knew nothing about music.

Anyway, I'm done. I made the mistake of letting myself get dragged into this.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

There seems to be this notion that knowing every scale and mode and position will make you better. I still can't figure out why people think that way. I can't remember EVER hearing any musician from Buddy Guy to Iron Maiden to The Count Basie Jazz orchestra and Charlie Parker's group talking about modes. They spoke about chords, keys and related things. Why even learn something if you'll rarely or never use it.

For example, Joe Pass in his instructional tapes was talking about 'C6/9' this or 'Cm7+9' that and not degrees or positions of scales. He did pretty good with good old colour chords, substitutions, arpeggios, the circle of fourths/chord cycles and so on. You obviously need to know something to do all that theory-wise. Also, despite not being a walking theory grimoire, he knew his trade very well and could play circles around people who apparently had memorized the big book of every bit of theory information. You can't say he knew nothing about music.

Anyway, I'm done. I made the mistake of letting myself get dragged into this.

Um...when did I ever get into any of that? All I'm trying to say is that telling people that knowing theory will mess with you is bad advice. That's all I'm trying to say. All these arguments about modes and such are none of my concern.

Also, I never said you need to know every single thing. That's just stupid. Very stupid. Because you can't know everything. Any idiot can tell you that.

But I guess I'm really just talking to myself here. Oh well...

[TheFrogPrince]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

Um...when did I ever get into any of that? All I'm trying to say is that telling people that knowing theory will mess with you is bad advice. That's all I'm trying to say. All these arguments about modes and such are none of my concern.

Also, I never said you need to know every single thing. That's just stupid. Very stupid. Because you can't know everything. Any idiot can tell you that.

But I guess I'm really just talking to myself here. Oh well...

I didn't say knowing theory messed with your head . I said knowing a lot of things you won't use does i.e knowing there are four sharps in whatever position in G, this mode and that mode etc. Great you just passed a theory pop quiz at Berklee. Now go up to any professional musician and tell them that. They'll stare at you like you're stupid.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

I didn't say knowing theory messed with your head . I said knowing a lot of things you won't use does.

Ah, well then in that case it just depends on the person, I guess. I'm the type of guy that loves to learn about this kind of stuff, even if I never use it.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

With respect because people argue way too much on here, how does knowing the sixth position of the major scale is this and the fourth is that? You don't really think of positions of the scale when you actually play. You don't use strictly this or that when playing the chords. You think in shapes, arpeggios or whatever you call personally call them and you think about what is coming next Dm7 goes to G7 etc etc.

Thinking in shapes when you play is a way to screw yourself bigtime. What happens if you find yourself out of position for your favorite shapes? If you know the 6th degree of the scale, you stand a lot better chance of finding it if you know the scale degrees offhand rather than having to rely on shapes.

Education is never a bad thing and never results in bogging yourself down with details. OTOH, not being educated often does result in bogging yourself down, because you'll find yourself with no clue where to go if you get out of position for your favorite shapes.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

I didn't say knowing theory messed with your head . I said knowing a lot of things you won't use does i.e knowing there are four sharps in whatever position in G, this mode and that mode etc. Great you just passed a theory pop quiz at Berklee. Now go up to any professional musician and tell them that. They'll stare at you like you're stupid.

You're joking, right? I'm a professional musician, and if you work with me, I'll stare at you like you're stupid if you DON'T know that stuff. Well, not really, but don't underestimate the value of knowing the details.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

With respect because people argue way too much on here, how does knowing the sixth position of the major scale is this and the fourth is that? You don't really think of positions of the scale when you actually play. You don't use strictly this or that when playing the chords. You think in shapes, arpeggios or whatever you call personally call them and you think about what is coming next Dm7 goes to G7 etc etc.

There are multiple levels to this knowledge - being able to derive it (relatively easy) and memorizing/training your muscle memory so you don't have to think about it.

If you only want to play arpeggios on closed positions, then I guess you don't have to worry about it. What if you want to play notes outside of that arpeggio? You can either trial-and-error (which you would have to do), or you can know what mode you are in so that you can play without making a musical fart the first time. Knowing only arpeggio shapes is limiting you strictly to those shapes which you have memorized.

I personally end up jamming with alot of "guitards" who DON'T know what they are playing and having a basic foundational understanding allows me to figure out single chord they are playing or what key they are playing in which in turn opens the entire fretboard opens up to me.

So again, I feel that you are seriously misinformed and that if you value improving your playing, you would reconsider your stance.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by TheFrogPrince

I didn't say knowing theory messed with your head . I said knowing a lot of things you won't use does i.e knowing there are four sharps in whatever position in G, this mode and that mode etc. Great you just passed a theory pop quiz at Berklee. Now go up to any professional musician and tell them that. They'll stare at you like you're stupid.

You know, I was finally going to agree with you until you edited your post. Now you're just plain wrong. I've asked many, many different musicians from a multitude of genres , professional and amateur, about this in the past, and I have NEVER had anyone "stare at me like I'm stupid".

Maybe that's what happens with the people you play with, but from my experience the uneducated always fall behind the educated, and those that know their stuff have always been able to make beautiful music.

The ones that don't know anything, however, have always been the ones that have been stuck in the same continuum of boring music, repeated licks, and inability to grasp anything new that could possibly make them better.

[Crazyeelboy]

Theory fight! Theory fight! Now, let's talk about the importance of sight reading!

I'm just saying let's don't take this so seriously. The original poster asked for some help and it is great that people were willing to help out. Everybody is just trying to help.

[bassyeah]

TheFrogPrince: if one were to replace the work "you" with "I" there wouldn't be a problem here... but since you did.... I'll just sit back, watch and wait for the importance of sightreading! _

[Crazyeelboy]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Thinking in shapes when you play is a way to screw yourself bigtime.

I agree. Thinking in shapes is kind of like memorizing specific sentences for various situation when learning a foreign language - it gets you through the situation, but it doesn't help much beyond that.

That said, though shapes can be useful to a beginner, but to be a solid player, one MUST move forward to truly understand the relationship between the notes.