Questions about Keys

[KingRazor]

So, if I've been taught right. Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi). So for example; F# would be F#, G#m, A#m, B, C#, and D#m.

If that's the case, how do you identify a minor key? Is the key of D#m the same as the key of F# major but just with D#m as the tonal center? Or is it more complicated than that?

[nicoli]

I'm not sure if that was just a type, but major keys have a major third and sixth.

[Muaguana]

Repost: I accidentally deleted my post while editing it.

You want to know the short cut? Look at a major key, like B major. 5 sharps. Now flat 3 of those (third, sixth, seventh.) And you got B minor - two sharps. C major: no sharps or flats. C minor: 3 flats.

A more theoretical approach is, as you say, to have the tonal center be on a different note. If you start the major scale off of the sixth scale degree, but go through all the same notes, you have the relative minor (or Aeolian mode) of that major scale (or Ionian mode.) If you start off the third scale degree, you get the Phrygian mode. Second, Dorian. Fourth, Lydian. Fifth, Mixolydian. Seventh, Locrian - my personal favorite. The trick mentioned above works because the third, sixth and seventh scale degrees of a minor scale are one half step lower than they would be if the scale was major. So, just "add" three flats to the key signature. Of course, this means that the scales with more than four flats will have double flats in the key signature, but in these cases you'd instead use the enharmonic equivalent of the root note, which would be a sharp note.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

So, if I've been taught right. Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi). So for example; F# would be F#, G#m, A#m, B, C#, and D#m.

If that's the case, how do you identify a minor key? Is the key of D#m the same as the key of F# major but just with D#m as the tonal center? Or is it more complicated than that?

You've got it. Small problem - you left out the 7th in your major key add the E#. And yes the D#m is made of the notes of the F# scale starting with the D#. Notice the natural minor scale starts with the 6th degree of the major scale and proceeds to the 7th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. See my comment below on key formula.

The notes are the same notes and the chords are the same chords in both. How do you tell which is major and which is minor? It does get a little complicated, but, to find out which you look to how the chords are being used. If the song revolves around the major chords it'll be major. If the song revolves around the minor chords it'll be minor. Looking at the key signature on the sheet music you would find 6 #'s - thanks, both have 6 #'s -- not a lot of help as the key signature tells you the Major AND relative minor scale. So your question; how do you tell, is a valid question.

Feel I must add this ----

Key Formula
Now making those notes into chords the easiest way IMHO is to use the key formula of I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim for the major key. Upper case numbers become major chords and lower case numbers become minor chords.

The key formula for the natural minor chords are:
i, iidiv, III, iv, v, VI, VII and again the lower case numbers become minor chords and the upper case numbers become major chords.
Notice the natural minor starts with the major scale's vi, then goes to the diminished, etc.

That out of the way. Now how do you identify a minor key? You identify a minor key by how it's chords are used. Take C and Am (Both have the same notes and the same chords). Am is the relative minor of C and C is the relative major of Am.

The major chords in the key of C are C, F & G and the minor chords in the key of Am are Am, Dm & Em. Whoa! The major chords in Am are C, F & G and the minor chords in C are Am, Dm & Em. Yep it is a little complicated. In any key there are three major chords, three minor chords and one diminished chord. What gives a song it's major sound? The Major chords, and yes the minor chords would give the song a minor sound. But I see Dm and Am used with C F & G all the time. Yep but how are the Dm and Am used in the progression are they color chords or structure chords? Which are the primary chords - gotta look to the primary (structure) chords. Give-a-way chord could/would be the dominant seventh G7 to C you're major. Em7 to Am you're minor, be aware lot of times the dominant seventh chord in a minor key is left major so instead of it being Em7 you would probably see just E7. I know, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. http://www.musilosophy.com/chord-charts.htm

Look for the tonic chord - what does the verse end with? 99% of the time a verse will end with the tonic chord. If it is the C your major if it is Am your minor.

Have fun.

[KingRazor]

After the comment about the 7th I double checked my source. Turns out they briefly went over it but said that diminished chords are rare in most forms of music other than jazz (and since I don't ever play jazz I've noticed this to be true). Thanks for clearing that up.

It appears keys, while complicated, are easier to figure out than I thought. I've just been ignoring them for so long because they didn't make sense at first.

[ryco]

I was a little confused what you were asking when I first read your post.
A word of caution, so you don't get confused later on down your musical education path.

When you hear the labels/designations "minor 2nd", "minor 3rd", "major 4th" etc = these terms usually refer to scale steps; not the chords built off of the scale steps.

Just be forewarned this might cause a little confusion when you hear these terms being used in another context.


All of the other info you have is correct

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

So, if I've been taught right. Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi). So for example; F# would be F#, G#m, A#m, B, C#, and D#m.

If that's the case, how do you identify a minor key? Is the key of D#m the same as the key of F# major but just with D#m as the tonal center? Or is it more complicated than that?

I think you're confusing KEYS with MODES. There are a ton of threads that endlessly (and pointlessly...) debate key centers vs. modes. I will leave you to search for and read those threads on your own.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

So, if I've been taught right. Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi). So for example; F# would be F#, G#m, A#m, B, C#, and D#m.

If that's the case, how do you identify a minor key? Is the key of D#m the same as the key of F# major but just with D#m as the tonal center? Or is it more complicated than that?

honestly, it really isn't any more complicated than that for keys. D#m is the relative minor to F#. The relative minor to a major key is the 6th. C's relative minor is Am, F's relative minor is Dm, etc.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Asher S

I think you're confusing KEYS with MODES. There are a ton of threads that endlessly (and pointlessly...) debate key centers vs. modes. I will leave you to search for and read those threads on your own.

I understand what modes are. My question was regarding keys. I got my answer though.

[254 stringer]

Hmm d#m a pretty sad key gives you a lump in your throat but not enough to make you weep

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by 254 stringer

Hmm d#m a pretty sad key gives you a lump in your throat but not enough to make you weep

What's funny is my church has played a rather upbeat song written in D#m.

[MalcolmAmos]

What key to play really gets down to what range of sound does the vocalist like to sing in. What range of sound lets them hit all the high notes and also handle all the low notes.

Normally guys like to sing in G and D.
Gals like to sing in A or G.

D# is getting picky. Major or minor deals with something else all together.
Hate it when the fat lady comes out of the audience and asks for Bb.
"Church music" will use a lot of flat keys. Why? Congregations sing flat.

Killing time between appointments.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

After the comment about the 7th I double checked my source. Turns out they briefly went over it but said that diminished chords are rare in most forms of music other than jazz (and since I don't ever play jazz I've noticed this to be true). Thanks for clearing that up.

It appears keys, while complicated, are easier to figure out than I thought. I've just been ignoring them for so long because they didn't make sense at first.

Diminished chords may be used in any kind of music. IMHO the use of more sophisticated chords has little to do with style, but more with the level of the people who play those styles.

[JTE]

Do this to LEARN this stuff. First, you said "Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi). "

The correct terminology is that the chords of the diatonic major scale are always I is major, ii is minor, iii is minor, IV is major, V is major, , vi is minor, and vii is half-diminished.

To see this, write out the scale, and stack thirds while staying in the same key, like this...

Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi).

C D E F G A B C

Then stack the thirds to get...

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And repeat...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And you really should carry it out the 7th chords, because that shows you the dominant 7 that the V chord really is- that chord is vital to understanding resolutions...

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now, use your basic harmony theory knowledge (and if you don't know this, forget scales and modes and tapping and all that junk until you do) to analyze the chord stacks so you see and understand WHY they're what they are. You gotta know not that the I chord is a major 7, but WHY.

They're, in order...
I Maj 7
ii min 7
iii min 7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min 7
vii min 7 b 5 (or half diminished)- it's a diminished triad, but not a diminished chord if you use the 7!!

Now the question about minor keys. The relative minor is always the sixth of the major scale. So, A minor is the relative minor of C major. There's a real problem here however... If you harmonize the A natural minor scale, you get the exact same chords as C major. So what? Well, that G7 pulls your ear to C major, not to A minor. That's a real problem...

So to resolve this problem, you can raise the 7 of the scale a half step. If you reharmonize the scale you'll get some very unusual chords, and some very stable ones...

G# A B C D E F
E F G# A B C D
C D E F G# A B
A B C D E F G#

Now the fifth chord is a regular E7, and it's going to pull your ear to the Amin first chord. Plus the chord built on G is now a G# min b5 bb7- and not a chord you're likely to play. This change also makes the C chord a C aug5 which isn't a stable chord so your ear won't hear it as the key center. This simple change of raising the 7 of a natural minor by a half-step creates a harmony inherent in the scale that pulls your ear to the A minor key center. Because this change to the natural minor was done for harmonic reasons, this scale is called the Harmonic Minor.

Seriously, bassists gotta know about the harmonized scale, and LEARNING this is a whole lot better than just memorizing what chords are major or minor...

John

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by JTE

Do this to LEARN this stuff. First, you said "Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi). "

The correct terminology is that the chords of the diatonic major scale are always I is major, ii is minor, iii is minor, IV is major, V is major, , vi is minor, and vii is half-diminished.

To see this, write out the scale, and stack thirds while staying in the same key, like this...

Major keys generally are made up of a major root (I), minor 2nd (ii), minor 3rd (iii), major 4th (IV), major 5th (V), and minor 6th (vi).

C D E F G A B C

Then stack the thirds to get...

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And repeat...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And you really should carry it out the 7th chords, because that shows you the dominant 7 that the V chord really is- that chord is vital to understanding resolutions...

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now, use your basic harmony theory knowledge (and if you don't know this, forget scales and modes and tapping and all that junk until you do) to analyze the chord stacks so you see and understand WHY they're what they are. You gotta know not that the I chord is a major 7, but WHY.

They're, in order...
I Maj 7
ii min 7
iii min 7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min 7
vii min 7 b 5 (or half diminished)- it's a diminished triad, but not a diminished chord if you use the 7!!

Now the question about minor keys. The relative minor is always the sixth of the major scale. So, A minor is the relative minor of C major. There's a real problem here however... If you harmonize the A natural minor scale, you get the exact same chords as C major. So what? Well, that G7 pulls your ear to C major, not to A minor. That's a real problem...

So to resolve this problem, you can raise the 7 of the scale a half step. If you reharmonize the scale you'll get some very unusual chords, and some very stable ones...

G# A B C D E F
E F G# A B C D
C D E F G# A B
A B C D E F G#

Now the fifth chord is a regular E7, and it's going to pull your ear to the Amin first chord. Plus the chord built on G is now a G# min b5 bb7- and not a chord you're likely to play. This change also makes the C chord a C aug5 which isn't a stable chord so your ear won't hear it as the key center. This simple change of raising the 7 of a natural minor by a half-step creates a harmony inherent in the scale that pulls your ear to the A minor key center. Because this change to the natural minor was done for harmonic reasons, this scale is called the Harmonic Minor.

Seriously, bassists gotta know about the harmonized scale, and LEARNING this is a whole lot better than just memorizing what chords are major or minor...

John

So would this mean that in a minor key, the 7th chords would be:

i min 7
ii half diminished 7
III major 7
iv minor 7
v minor 7
VI major 7
VII major 7

?

Edit: Yeah, there is no interval of a minor 5th, but that has nothing to do with whether there is a minor V chord... duh *facepalm*

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes the VII is major.

Be careful on that five chord. Natural minor will use a v or minor five chord. Harmonic and Melodic do use a V or Major five chord.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Diminished chords may be used in any kind of music. IMHO the use of more sophisticated chords has little to do with style, but more with the level of the people who play those styles.

I can remember many years ago, when I was in pop/rock bands I had recorded a new song and played it to a friend and his girlfriend, who was a pro classical player in orchestras.

So my friend said - yeah great etc. but his girfriend said ..."how interesting, a whole song based entirely around one diminished chord."

I was totally flummoxed and never knew whether she was being positive or putting me down!!

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Yes the VII is major.

Be careful on that five chord. Natural minor will use a v or minor five chord. Harmonic and Melodic do use a V or Major five chord.

lol there I go confusing intervals with chords again.

[sammyp]

JTE is right - harmonizing scale theory is a must and it's not tough.

True Minor Key in the classical sense comes from the Harmonic minor ....minor in the contemporary music sense will usually come from the natural minor (Aeolian mode). Then we often see the inclusion of the V7 from the harmonic minor in a tune using mostly natural minor changes:

IE House of the Rising Sun - Am , C , F ( A natural minor) D maj(from and A dorian) then E7 from A harmonic minor

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by sammyp

JTE is right - harmonizing scale theory is a must and it's not tough.

True Minor Key in the classical sense comes from the Harmonic minor ....minor in the contemporary music sense will usually come from the natural minor (Aeolian mode). Then we often see the inclusion of the V7 from the harmonic minor in a tune using mostly natural minor changes:

IE House of the Rising Sun - Am , C , F ( A natural minor) D maj(from and A dorian) then E7 from A harmonic minor

I've actually known the harmonic scale since way back when I first learned the natural minor scale about two years ago.

My problem with music theory has mainly been the application of it.