Questions regarding writing with my new band

[hipo]

Hey
So this is my first time as a bass player in a serious band. I played guitar for 15 years before switching to bass (out of curiosity more than anything) and have been playing about 3 years.

So the new band is hard rock/heavy, and using drop C tuning. Most of the songs are fairly straight forward and the guys are fans of the bass and they have been allowing me room to move and experiment.

At this stage we only have 5 songs and alot of rehearsal time is spent trying to figure out changes and structure etc.

As a guitarist, in the past i have come to rehearsals with the full song structure most of the time but i never worked with a second guitarist in a band/writing situation.

So my question is, how do you guys write with your guitarist? Do you expect them to have their material ready and structured by the time they get to rehearsal and would you wait until they have a bunch of completed songs down before you start writing bass parts? Sometimes i feel it is a waste of time being there when the two guitarists and drummer are still working on song structure. AM i being selfish?

I know this process is very different for everyone but im sure some of you can give some great feedback.

Cheers

[MalcolmAmos]

If you only have 5 songs --- going to need at least 18 for each hour you will perform.

Right now I'd get the fake chord the rhythm guitar is using and then use that to construct my bass lines.

Work with those songs and find what grooves.

R-3-5-3 is one of my favorite major chord bass line grooves. And R-b3-5-b3 likewise is one of my favorite minor chord bass lines. I find those easy to walk into a groove. Throw in some 8's and some 6's and have fun.

Good luck.

[zachoff]

Do they expect you to contribute to the writing/arrangement? I've been in two bands where one person wrote most of everything and while it was OK it wasn't very satisfying.

Right now, the guitar player and I go back and forth trying stuff out before we agree on a riff/melody/change/whatever. Sometimes it will be easy and I'll say "Play that again, that was rad." or he'll say "Keep playing that... I want to figure something out to go over the top".

Sometimes the drummer will pipe up and say he likes it one way or another but he mostly contributes to the arrangement and changes. It could take 3 or 4 practices before we get a new song fully nailed down and oftentimes I'll change it after it's been fully nailed down because the vocal melody I've come up with will require it.

So, I guess we write collaboratively & one person rarely comes with an entire song ready to go and if they do it usually changes quite a bit before it's finished.

[Zoa]

If I'm playing hard rock, which is generally mostly guitar driven, then I usually wait until the song is in some sort of structure before I jump in with hte bass part.

[taphappy]

Easy way to fall into the "Oh, him? That's just the bass player..." category :)

It's not selfish, at all. You just haven't figured out what your place is with two other principal instruments, which is very understandable. But, it can be anything. Just depends on the guys you're playing with. I've done everything from third wheel to band director, it's all situational.

Nowadays, I write with my guitarist. And on my own. Bring my riffs/songs to the table. Sometimes I have an idea that defines the guitar parts, sometimes his ideas define the bass parts. Our old drummer used to come in with full songs arranged, and we'd jam over it 'til something caught, then run with that. But, even the singer's an integral part of our writing and arrangement process. He'll even strap on a guitar sometimes. But, if two of us are noodling on an idea, the others sit back and wait it out unless an "oo oo!!" epiphany hits. Otherwise it gets jumbled quick.

Sounds like you have to get involved. Just because you're not necessarily plugged in at the time doesn't mean you can't sit in with a dry erase marker and a white board (Home Depot, they sell sheets of the stuff - $12 when cut into three that are around 3'x5'), and work with 'em on getting down the arrangements, and add input.

Or play Angry Birds.

Make 'em sandwiches.

Drag an acoustic to the nearest street corner, set up a merch rack, and play for coins and t-shirt sales 'til they call you in.

The options are endless!

[liquid sunshine]

being there is the easy way to pick up the parts. also if you are there writing your parts with them it might make something happen within the song around your bass line.

[hipo]

Originally Posted by Zoa

If I'm playing hard rock, which is generally mostly guitar driven, then I usually wait until the song is in some sort of structure before I jump in with hte bass part.

Ya this is what I think. There is no point trying to come up with bass parts until the whole band has decided on the song structure otherwise your constantly changing what you have written (for the bass part)

[hipo]

Originally Posted by taphappy

Easy way to fall into the "Oh, him? That's just the bass player..." category

It's not selfish, at all. You just haven't figured out what your place is with two other principal instruments, which is very understandable. But, it can be anything. Just depends on the guys you're playing with. I've done everything from third wheel to band director, it's all situational.

Nowadays, I write with my guitarist. And on my own. Bring my riffs/songs to the table. Sometimes I have an idea that defines the guitar parts, sometimes his ideas define the bass parts. Our old drummer used to come in with full songs arranged, and we'd jam over it 'til something caught, then run with that. But, even the singer's an integral part of our writing and arrangement process. He'll even strap on a guitar sometimes. But, if two of us are noodling on an idea, the others sit back and wait it out unless an "oo oo!!" epiphany hits. Otherwise it gets jumbled quick.

Sounds like you have to get involved. Just because you're not necessarily plugged in at the time doesn't mean you can't sit in with a dry erase marker and a white board (Home Depot, they sell sheets of the stuff - $12 when cut into three that are around 3'x5'), and work with 'em on getting down the arrangements, and add input.

Or play Angry Birds.

Make 'em sandwiches.

Drag an acoustic to the nearest street corner, set up a merch rack, and play for coins and t-shirt sales 'til they call you in.

The options are endless!

Thanks for your response

I agree with most of this. I know I should be involved in the writing process and I am however, like I said above I think I am going to wait until we have all agreed on song structure before I even start writing my parts.

[HeadyVan Halen]

Again:
Practice is what you do at home or with one other member so you have something to rehearse.
They're not the same thing.
I'd invite the guy over, buy a 12 pack, and hash out what you want to do, so that way when you go to reahearsal, you are actually rehearsing and not doing the following:

"Hey, is there a break here?"
"I thought you said it was a major.."
"It's a 3 measure break right.."

Sure, it happens at times at rehearsal, but if it's mostly what happens, that's practice.

[zachoff]

Originally Posted by HeadyVan Halen

Again:
Practice is what you do at home or with one other member so you have something to rehearse.
They're not the same thing.
I'd invite the guy over, buy a 12 pack, and hash out what you want to do, so that way when you go to reahearsal, you are actually rehearsing and not doing the following:

"Hey, is there a break here?"
"I thought you said it was a major.."
"It's a 3 measure break right.."

Sure, it happens at times at rehearsal, but if it's mostly what happens, that's practice.

Sometimes you're writing and sometimes you're rehearsing. Two different kinds of practice IMO. My band generally rehearses half the time and writes half the time.

[StonewallValent]

IMO you don't want to wait for the song structure to be made before you work on your parts. You can come up with a lot of great ideas that, even if they're not used, could be put in another song. You can also direct the structure of the song while you're writing your parts for it. If you wait, that leaves you out of a lot of the composition process. Instead of coming up with a joint idea, you'd just be writing bass parts for your guitarists songs. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it still seems like you'd end up less involved in the compositional process there.

[Stumbo]

Maybe you can come up with some bass lines on your own that can be supported by the guitars.

They'll probably take your lines as a starting point and write around them, add to them and generally beat them to death. That's okay.

This may get you more involved and be seen more as part of the song writing team.

Alternatively, when they are working on stuff, maybe you can introduce some bass breaks or lines that can be interwoven with what they are doing.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by hipo

Thanks for your response

I agree with most of this. I know I should be involved in the writing process and I am however, like I said above I think I am going to wait until we have all agreed on song structure before I even start writing my parts.

YES you can do that. Give this some thought. What they are going to give you is going to be fake chord or lead sheet, i.e., they will not have written out the bass clef. They expect you to do that. But, for you to do that you want at least the first draft to be completed. Your bass line must augment what has been written, if they are still changing things, so must you - I see your point.

That said; now..... let's face it, writting a bass line, is not all that complicated - write for what they have so far - help them see how it will sound all put together. If they change something, let them see how this new bass line will sound. It's a team effort, let them see you as being part of the team.

Good luck.

[hipo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

YES you can do that. Give this some thought. What they are going to give you is going to be fake chord or lead sheet, i.e., they will not have written out the bass clef. They expect you to do that. But, for you to do that you want at least the first draft to be completed. Your bass line must augment what has been written, if they are still changing things, so must you - I see your point.

That said; now..... let's face it, writting a bass line, is not all that complicated - write for what they have so far - help them see how it will sound all put together. If they change something, let them see how this new bass line will sound. It's a team effort, let them see you as being part of the team.

Good luck.

Thank mate
Its just frustrating sometimes when we have hired a studio and half the time is spent between the two guitarists saying "nah man that part goes for 6" "nah we changed it now it goes for 4.2 remember" I'm standing there waiting for them to get their **** together.

[MalcolmAmos]

I know our job would be so much easier, if we could get people out of the equation.

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[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by hipo

Thank mate
Its just frustrating sometimes when we have hired a studio and half the time is spent between the two guitarists saying "nah man that part goes for 6" "nah we changed it now it goes for 4.2 remember" I'm standing there waiting for them to get their **** together.

I've just joined a band that has a fair amount of originals already done, but I'm free to play whatever I want under it.

The way we do it, and it works well if you can make time for it, is to have myself and the guitarist get together at a separate time from full band rehearsal and he'll give me the run down on the song structures. I'll play it while I'm there, but I'll record it and then I'll take it home and get it the way I want it.

Then when we all show up to rehearsal, I've got my part ready, and we can rehearse it. That's for stuff that's already finished though. If they're new songs that are going to be written as a band then I don't think there's anyway around that. That's just the writing process. It takes some time to get stuff worked out before greatness can happen. Maybe just chime in more with your ideas when it seems that things appear to be stalling out.