quick modes question

[bryanonbass]

ive done a search on this and everyone seems to keep saying the same thing about modes, that they are the same notes as the parent scale just starting on a different note. Yet no one seems to have asked this;

How are they really used? What is the practical use for them.

For instance if someone says we are going to play in D dorian (c major is the parent scale)
Is the I chord a C or a D?


In fact at a jam session would someone even say " lets play in D Dorian? or F mixolydian or whatever?

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by bryanonbass

ive done a search on this and everyone seems to keep saying the same thing about modes, that they are the same notes as the parent scale just starting on a different note. Yet no one seems to have asked this;

How are they really used? What is the practical use for them.

For instance if someone says we are going to play in D dorian (c major is the parent scale)
Is the I chord a C or a D?


In fact at a jam session would someone even say " lets play in D Dorian? or F mixolydian or whatever?

I would say that question has been answered many times here alone. Main uses are for composition, improvisation, building bass lines with the proper notes for the function of the chord.

You don't hear people say we're playing in F Mixolydian of D Dorian. There is Modal Jazz made famous by the Miles Davis Kind of Blue album and others of the era. I would say people still talk about the chord or chords they are going to play and it up to you as a player to hear the approprite mode, or you as an improvisor decide to use a particular for the sound or mood associated with that mode.

Where you hear people talk about mode a lot is in analyzing a chord progression to decide what scale/mode to use over that chord. That the first couple bars of the song All The Things You Are. The first two chords are Fmi7 and Bbmi7. The Fmi7 is the VI chord so Aeolian mode and the Bbmi7 is a II chord so Dorian is the correct mode. Only one note difference between the two mode, but listen in the context of the song and it sounds right. Same song look at the fourth and fifth bars AbMa7 to DbMa7. The AbMa7 is the I chord and DbMa7 is the IV chord. I chord play the Ionian mode and IV chord Lydian mode. I hear you saying but the notes are all the same. But thinking Ab Ionian you will emphaisize different notes than you do for Db Lydian plus the #4 is are really cool sound I would lay for it.

Last the song and chords above many would play Dorian over both of the minor chords and play Lydian over both major chords. Those are default scales/modes of choice for many because they like the sound. They like the sound of a major 6th play against a minor chord, or the #4 of Lydian on any major. So some are using modes based on the sound they create.

I have another way I use modes for teaching the fretboard using modes fingering as inversions of the major scale. That is a lot more than I planned on saying, but should give you an idea modes can be used in many ways.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by DocBop

You don't hear people say we're playing in F Mixolydian or D Dorian. There is Modal Jazz made famous by the Miles Davis Kind of Blue album and others of the era. .

What your second sentence above describes - contradicts your first!

So of course in the sessions for the album "Kind of Blue" - Miles Davis did actually say to the other musicians on the first tune - this is two modes, one of which happens to be D Dorian !!

And the last tune on the album is nothing but improvisation on a series of modes...!

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

What your second sentence above describes - contradicts your first!

So of course in the sessions for the album "Kind of Blue" - Miles Davis did actually say to the other musicians on the first tune - this is two modes, one of which happens to be D Dorian !!

And the last tune on the album is nothing but improvisation on a series of modes...!

I see them as different the one being compositional use. I did say you might hear someone say like jam on mode X, I find it rare, but I edited it out in trying to keep thing brief. I would say with musicians like Miles and crew more of that stuff is heard and done than talked about.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by bryanonbass

How are they really used? What is the practical use for them.

They don't necessarily have a "use", modes just happen to be a tone series that occurs when laying down a key signature. They just "are" (Ooo - heavy, like Grand Funk). They can be used for ear training and songwriting.

For instance if someone says we are going to play in D dorian (c major is the parent scale). Is the I chord a C or a D?

If someone says "we are going to play in D dorian" then the I is D Dorian Minor.

In fact at a jam session would someone even say " lets play in D Dorian? or F mixolydian or whatever?

Yes.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by DocBop

I would say with musicians like Miles and crew more of that stuff is heard and done than talked about.

There are photos of the KoB sessions though - where you can see that Miles has written out all the notes of the modes he wanted - rather than putting a chord symbol on the manuscript paper placed on stands, in front of the other musicians.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

There are photos of the KoB sessions though - where you can see that Miles has written out all the notes of the modes he wanted - rather than putting a chord symbol on the manuscript paper placed on stands, in front of the other musicians.

That's cool hope I run across those photos some day. But I've never seen that done and I worked in a Jazz school for seven years. But a lot of things I haven't seen.

[ba55i5t]

Another practical use for them would be if you were soloing in the key of C major to switch to a mode within that scale to give it a different sound. For example, say you have 4 bars of C maj, you could possibly use D Dorian scale, F Lydian Scale, B Locrian...all of them sound different but they all use the same notes in the C major scale.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by DocBop

That's cool hope I run across those photos some day.

They're in this book :



Well worth buying - a very interesting read and some great pics!

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

They're in this book :



Well worth buying - a very interesting read and some great pics!

Great got it on my Amazon wish list.

[ryanowens]

Great thread....

I was wonderng.. would you ever be playing over a C maj and just decide you want to play in C Lydian, or C Locrian or any other mode. I guess this would be playing the WRONG mode over the chord but could sound really cool.

Is that also how some people develop a kind of sound all their own. Is it something to do with their mode choices when improving over changes?

I know it is a ton of other things too but it seems like matt garrison for example like playing lydian shapes over chords that are not 4 chords for example and so you can kinda tell that it is him playing by his note choice.

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm learning a lot from you!

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by ba55i5t

Another practical use for them would be if you were soloing in the key of C major to switch to a mode within that scale to give it a different sound. For example, say you have 4 bars of C maj, you could possibly use D Dorian scale, F Lydian Scale, B Locrian...all of them sound different but they all use the same notes in the C major scale.

no offense, but I think what you'd really be doing in that case would be playing in C and just perhaps emphasizing different notes within the main scale. Trying to think of it as four different modes that all use the same notes over a single chord doesn't really give you anything that applying different patterns of tension/release within a single mode/scale doesn't give you. To me, it just makes things needlessly complex without giving you more than what you had.

I wonder sometimes if we bassists are particularly prone to thinking this way because the notes we play are usually the lowest ones going on at a given time, and so we assume that the note we start on is the basis of the harmony at the moment. For instance, if I'm playing a line or a solo with a C major chord, and I start off a diatonic sequence of notes from an A, it might be tempting to think I'm in A aeolian. However, the fact that A is my first note does not mean I'm playing in A aeolian.

Please don't take this as anything personal, but I'm a big believer in not complicating things when complication sheds no additional light.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by ryanowens

Great thread....

I was wonderng.. would you ever be playing over a C maj and just decide you want to play in C Lydian, or C Locrian or any other mode. I guess this would be playing the WRONG mode over the chord but could sound really cool.

Is that also how some people develop a kind of sound all their own. Is it something to do with their mode choices when improving over changes?

I know it is a ton of other things too but it seems like matt garrison for example like playing lydian shapes over chords that are not 4 chords for example and so you can kinda tell that it is him playing by his note choice.

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm learning a lot from you!

That's why it's important to learn the sound not just a fingering pattern. Learning modes via fingering patterns is a bike with training wheels. After awhile you need to learn which notes are creating the sound of the mode so you don't have to think the mode any more. If its a major chord you can play a major scale and throw in the #4 when you want that sound, or a b3 passing tone to get Bluesy. That why so many posts talk about getting the sound in your ear.

For example a lot of people like to use the altered scale on dominant chords. But they don't know the scale by the colors in it they know its the 7th mode of Melodic Minor. Well by the time they think oooh 7th chord I was an altered sound. Lets see Melodic Minor finger pattern from 1/2 step above. By the time they've done that the chord is over. Plus what if the chord has altered 9's, but not 5's Altered isn't gone to work have to use Diminished half-step scale, but it has a #4 and yet another fingering pattern. If you learn things by know the colors or knowing your major scale well enough to add or subtract the colors your there.

Start with fingering patterns but goal is to get away from them in long run.

[ba55i5t]

I know what you mean man, but I mean, we as bassists are supposed to have nice fluid lines. This means that we shouldn't jump from root to root. I agree with Gary Willis in that statement, but I'm not quite skilled at that yet, I need a lot of work in my walking lines. I try to write that style, but my teacher also instructs me to write on the root on the 1 beat because it emphasizes the chord at the beginning. When I become better I think I'll be able to incorporate different modal patterns when looking at chords in order to make my lines more fluid. I know it's a little more complicated, but it's something that I want to work on. And I'm not putting down root on beat 1 either as it is quite an effective tool. However IMHO fluidity makes quite a solid bassline.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by ba55i5t

I know what you mean man, but I mean, we as bassists are supposed to have nice fluid lines. This means that we shouldn't jump from root to root. I agree with Gary Willis in that statement, but I'm not quite skilled at that yet, I need a lot of work in my walking lines. I try to write that style, but my teacher also instructs me to write on the root on the 1 beat because it emphasizes the chord at the beginning. When I become better I think I'll be able to incorporate different modal patterns when looking at chords in order to make my lines more fluid. I know it's a little more complicated, but it's something that I want to work on. And I'm not putting down root on beat 1 either as it is quite an effective tool. However IMHO fluidity makes quite a solid bassline.

Yes, I hear you; of course fluidity is important. But you may not be hearing what I'm saying. Just because you're not just jumping from root to root--and you're quite right, that can get boring--that doesn't mean you're necessarily in a different mode just because the first note you play is not the root of the chord. The mode you're in is not defined by the first note you play, or even the note you play on a strong beat, but by the note that actually makes up the harmonic center at the moment. This means that if you're playing in C major, over a C major chord, and if you select from the notes CDEFGAB, regardless of whether your line starts on C, D, E, G, A, B, you're likely playing in C major/ionian. Now, if you lean on the A so much that you're starting to make the C major chord sound like an Am7, then you could maybe say you're playing in A aeolian. But if the overall sense of what you're playing sounds like C, then you're playing in C, not all those other modes.

It's cool to work on things that are complicated, but my point was that what you were suggesting didn't actually add anything to the harmonic possibilities. Playing a line starting on B doesn't mean you're playing in B locrian; starting one on E doesn't mean you're playing in E phrygian; and so forth. There's no point to complication if it doesn't add to the possibilities.

Now if you'd said, C major, C lydian, C mixolydian, C blues scale, each of those would have changed the harmonic possibilities. See what I mean?

[alexei]

I think that knowing all the modes helps a lot in starting reading a musical score (partiture?) so when you see the starting (sorry i donk know many names in english.. key signature?) there it say the song has 3 sharps... but i.e. the song starts with a C... then you have some options...



A. you can just find which notes are sharps, then memorize them, make the whole scale with those sharps, the rest of the notes in normal and learn that scale like it was a particular scale used in THAT song...

B. or you can just use your knowledge and tell "humm... let's check the score: 3 sharps? I studied circle of fifths, then G... D... A! then it must be an A major scale notes: sharps are the 7th note of each of those mentioned: F#, C# and G#. Besides the root chord is C (sharp of course) that's the 3rd note in the A major scale. Then our song must be in C# minor (Phrigyan, not Dorian, not Aeolian nor Locrian).

Of course you wont have to learn the scale because you studied modes and know exactly how the phrygian mode goes, with a diminished 2nd, minor 3rd and 6th, dominant 7th. A very common known minor scale.

Another use i can think of, is for example, if you gonna teach your song to a guitarist and you say "Now is F minor 6th" and the guy makes a D sound loudly... you can say "yo, is F minor in Aeolian, not Dorian, undertand?? so please stop using that G, and use a Gb".

Well... ill post if i recall more uses i gave to that knowledge.

PS: image is taken from wikipedia.

[ryanowens]

this is a question.... I'm really asking if this is what other people do as I am just learning to really improvise:

I realize that when you study modes they each have a place with each scale tone.
The four is - lydian
The two is - Dorian etc....

but it seems to me that if we always play the correct mode over the correct chord (ie the Mixolydian over the 5 chord) then we will always be playing diatonically and while that is OK we might be missing out on some really cool sounds by placing the "wrong" mode over a given chord.

Is this what you guys do? Do you find combinations that you really like and use those as your bag of tricks. For example you like the sound of the lydian mode over the 1 chord so you play that instead of the ionian, or you like to play dorian over the 6 chord because you prefer the raised 6th over the 6 chord?

Am I on the right track? If so, are there any standard substitutions that work really well?

Thanks.
Ryan

[Tslicebass]

yeah ryan owens you are on the right track. Altering one note, like playing lydian instead of major or dorian instead of natural minor...or even harmonic minor instead of natural minor, makes your playing sound a little more dissonant (tension). But you dont need to stop there. You can use lydian augmented instead major and alter a second note... more dissonance. It is important to remember there are no rules when improvising, even when you are thinking of modes. For instance... especially on dominant 7th chords. Instead of just playing c mixo. over C7, you can use C alt, C locrian with natural 2, C half whole diminshed, C lydian flat 7 etc. You can also just play D flat dominant. It is all about expirementing with different tension points and release points. Dominant 7th chords work the best for this becasue they are usually a point in which a chord progression is about to resolve... like 5 to 1. Practice this over the blues, usually all 7th chords and plenty of blues play alongs available. Just get used to thinking beyond each chord and practice the overall concept of creating tension and release

[ba55i5t]

Oh, so you want to change the entire tonality? Well, yeah, I'm down for that...however sometimes if you do this it could sound bad. I remember once playing in my jazz ensemble and it didn't work out that well. Theoretically, I think that you can prove it to be a right note because you can derive it from changing through keys. You're allowed to do anything in jazz but the notes in the chord will always satisfy the chord the best. If you want to be creative, be creative, it's all about your own personal style. You want to play a dorian over a major? Go ahead, but if you get a negative response from the band you'd know why you got it. If you want to sub chords in go ahead, it's a good way to make the piece yours. However, if it were me, I'd stick to notes that satisfy the chord and make it interesting by changing up the rhythm once in a while. Instead of playing straight quarters, maybe 3 on 4...2 on 4...etc.

I'd only suggest doing this in a jazz atmosphere though...and possibly solos. I think that some rock songs are a little less forgiving.

+1 to tension and release!

[Tslicebass]

Thats the best thing about music. The possiblities are endless. Plus what sounds bad and ugly to one person or band will sound like gold to another. i think the key is just to be aware of your setting and aware of who you are performing with. Every gig i play calls for a different approach, even if it is with the same band playing the same tunes. This keeps your approach sounding fresh and not tired.