Recently start playing bass and I have a couple questions

[Gadgetech]

Hello TB forum!

I've been playing for 3 weeks now and I want to be sure I'm doing some things correctly. I am taking lessons and I've been given very positive feedback from my instructor but I have a few questions.

1. I am trying to get Cantaloupe Island down by playing slowly with a metronome and man my fingers and wrist are killing me after an hour. My main focus is the first measure (starts on F) which moves across 3 strings using frets 1 and 3 which puts me at the top of the neck and the last two notes I am practicing the hammer on technique. I'm guessing the pain is coming from the stretching (small hands) but is that right? I just want to be sure what I'm experiencing is normal. Any other thoughts?

2. What should the wrist angle be between the hand and arm? At the top of the neck as in above, my wrist angle is slightly less than 90 degrees if I want to keep all my fingers off the strings except the one I'm playing. This seems to be wrong to me but I'm not sure how to get my fingers over to the E string and play other notes on other strings without the rest of my fingers/hand touching strings . (Hope that makes sense) Also, the muscles in my forarms feel like they've been worked out.

3. When high on the neck, my fingers are not exactly perpendicular to the strings but more like a 30-40 degree angle. Is that normal?

4. My pinky tends to feel numb on the tip after about an hour of practice. Given that my pinky is the weakest by far, maybe this is normal until I build up strength.

5. Thumb pressure - I've read there shouldn't be much pressure on the thumb so how do you create enough downward force to keep the string on the fret so it doesn't buzz.

I've just thought of these since my last lesson and most likely they are due to what I am practicing. I haven't noticed before now with just playing scales and octaves. I appreciate the input.

[BassWaffle]

Hmm i usually put all of the pressure on my thumb. never really thought about it. and my highschool jazz band is playing that song, except im playing bari sax, not bass

[Gadgetech]

Originally Posted by BassWaffle

Hmm i usually put all of the pressure on my thumb. never really thought about it. and my highschool jazz band is playing that song, except im playing bari sax, not bass

I love playing Bari! Tenor is my main horn but I do love busting out some low notes.

[BassmanSBK]

1. When you are still new to the instrument, some pain is normal, as you begin to work muscles, tendons and ligaments that you don't ususally work. HOWEVER: the pain should not be sharp. A dull soreness (more like fatigue than "pain") is normal. If the pain is anything more than that: STOP AND REST.

2. There should be almost NO angle between wrist and arm, on either hand. Certainly no more than 10 degrees or so (and that should not be consistent).

Curl your FINGERS to get the tips onto the fingerboard, no your wrist. If you need to bend your left wrist to reach the fingerboard, raise the neck of your instrument (i.e., closer to up-and-down) to relax your wrist angle.

If you need to bend your right wrist to get your fingers to the strings, stop resting your arm on the top edge of the body of instrument. Instead, lift your elbow up (towards the sky) and back, and rest your forearm across the face of the body.

3. It can be, but you want to work toward a more perpendicular reach. Raising the neck as described above will help.

4. Your correct. Stop practicing when you feel numbness. Also, pinky independence is often an unatainable goal. Upright players don't even try it. I tend to use my pinky only when supported by the next finger.

5. Pull your elbow back (from the shoulder) to create pressure without squeezing with your thumb. Try to play short runs without the thumb touching the neck at all. (It seems strange until it works for you the first time.) The thumb should contribute just enough pressure to act as a "guide" or
pivot point" for the rest of the hand.

Also--bear in mind that fret buzz (when it does not reflect problems with the setup of the instrument) is not caused by insufficient pressure on the fingerboard. It actually takes very little pressure to make a note ring true (especially when you have frets). The buzzing is caused by poor release technique. If you lift up too quickly or too slowly, you get buzz. This is something that is incredibly hard to describe in words, but your teacher should be able to show you the difference. It takes a real investment in time and practice (i.e., months) before good release technique becomes second nature. Keep working on it. It will come if you do not stop.

Good luck.

[Gadgetech]

Good advice there. Any pain (soreness is a better word) goes away the moment I drop my left hand from the neck. I just played around with keeping more of a straight wrist on my left hand and it's something I'll have to put a lot of work into but that is okay. I know how hard it is to break a bad habit.

[Down & Outman]

Hand strength makes a lot of difference. I cut meat for 5 years part time. Man what a workout my hands got. Really improved my playing.

Your hand and finger strength will come with practice. Also any hand and finger excersizes will help. Get a tennis ball and squeeze it till it falls apart. Kind of like my first guitar I destroyed learning to play it.

Work with that pinky. I use my pinky 99% of the time. One bass lick that helped me was Led Zep's The Crunge. Man my hand hurt trying to get that one down. I also would practice finger runs on the same string, up and down, back and forth starting slow and working up speed.

I tend to be a hand wrapper. I hold the neck with the palm of my hand. Occasionally going to my thumb as needed. Been playing so long I don't even think about it. Main thing is to adjust your strap to where it is comfortable to play.

Keep practicing. It'll come. I used to practice for hours, playing to records (those old vinyl things). Thank goodness I lived in the country where the nearest neighbor was a mile away, LOL.

[MalcolmAmos]

As most have said a little pain is normal. You are asking your hands, fingers, shoulder, etc. to do things they never have before. It will get better. Your instructor will correct any problem you have before it causes damage. So lighten up and enjoy the ride.

I looked up Cantaloupe Island, it being a jazz piece, I thought it a little advanced for a beginner, however after looking at the sheet music you can learn a lot from that song. Sounds like you have one of the better instructors helping you. Trust the way he/she has you going.

Welcome to the bottom end, have fun.

[parmezans]

Originally Posted by BassmanSBK

If you need to bend your right wrist to get your fingers to the strings, stop resting your arm on the top edge of the body of instrument. Instead, lift your elbow up (towards the sky) and back, and rest your forearm across the face of the body.

I've always been wondering about that. Yes, when resting my forearm on the top of the bass, it gets pressured a bit and my wrist is angled, but when I try to raise it like you described (and everyone does, apparently) (Flea plays like that) my right shoulder muscle hurts like a *****!!! How does your shoulder not get sore? I mean, I'm a 6'6 basketball player, pretty athletic, I work out my shoulders pretty much every day... and it's a pain to play like that through a whole song. How isn't every veteran bass player's right shoulder non symmetrically buffed compared to the right? Oh yeah, and are bass players' right shoulders raised compared to the left, since they always wear the strap on their left shoulder?

[mambo4]

You want the bass to be a slave to your body mechanics, not the other way around Strap length and angle of the neck will contribute the most towards relieving discomfort. Everyone's body differs, so take some time standing up, adjusting your strap and the angle of your neck and try to place the "plucking zone" where your right hand is comfortable and the "fretting zone" where your left hand is comfy -keeping wrists straight as a possible. Variation id allowing, you can move the bass while playign -especially for the left hand. Closer I fret to the headstock, the higher up my neck points (bringing it closer to my head)

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by parmezans

How does your shoulder not get sore? I mean, I'm a 6'6 basketball player, pretty athletic, I work out my shoulders pretty much every day... and it's a pain to play like that through a whole song. How isn't every veteran bass player's right shoulder non symmetrically buffed compared to the right? Oh yeah, and are bass players' right shoulders raised compared to the left, since they always wear the strap on their left shoulder?

Although bass playing may not be as physically demanding as basketball, for example, it does involve unique muscle use patterns. So, no matter how athletic you are, new muscle use patterns are going to require adaptation. For 31 years the only part of my right arm and hand that touches the bass is the tip of my thumb on a thumb anchor point and the tips of my fingers on the strings. My right forearm is about 2-3 inches above the bass body.

As to your second question, my shoulders are dead even, and that's because the neck of my bass is at about a 25-30 degree angle to the floor. If it were horizontal, the "left shoulder droop" would be necessary - and potentially injury-inducing.

[parmezans]

I see... So I'll just keep playing that way until I get stronger.
I was talking about the weight of the bass itself, it's all concentrated on your left shoulder where the strap is, right? So it's only logical that your left shoulder would drop after many years of playing.

[hernameisrio]

My left shoulder is a piece of **** (bad rotator cuff) and when I first picked up bass, it was quite the uphill battle to find a decent position that wouldn't hurt. One of the things I noticed is that if you sort of "push through" using the bigger muscles in your back instead of in your left (fretting) hand, you don't wear your thumb out or have as much of a death-grip on the neck. It's hard to describe, but you'll know it when you do it. As for the right hand, if your right shoulder is hunched up in order to play, it's possible that your bass is too high. I know some people favor a really high position, but personally I find that if my shoulders can't be relaxed and in a sort of "neutral" position, it's hard to get my muscles to cooperate because I just don't have the same flow of energy throughout my hands...it even affects my breathing. When you practice, look in the mirror to see how you hold the bass, or better yet, videotape yourself playing. This way, you can get a decent perspective on any bad habits that might be forming. If you left shoulder starts to hurt a bit due to the weight of your bass, get a padded strap or put a towel under your strap and across your shoulder.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on proper placement of hands and wrists, but for me personally, I try to be fully aware of where my entire body is when I play...how I stand, if I lean on one foot, if my back is straight, and so on. If you find yourself fighting with your instrument, it's not going to be as fun and rewarding to play it. Do everything you can, at this stage in the game, to get as physically comfortable with it as possible.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by parmezans

I was talking about the weight of the bass itself, it's all concentrated on your left shoulder where the strap is, right? So it's only logical that your left shoulder would drop after many years of playing.

After 31 years, mine are still dead even. As hernameisrio wrote, you should be aware of posture. You may want to read up on the Alexander Technique - I studied formally for about a year and I believe it really helped me with the ergonomics of playing and of everyday life.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by Gadgetech

Hello TB forum!

I've been playing for 3 weeks now and I want to be sure I'm doing some things correctly. I am taking lessons and I've been given very positive feedback from my instructor but I have a few questions.

1. I am trying to get Cantaloupe Island down by playing slowly with a metronome and man my fingers and wrist are killing me after an hour. My main focus is the first measure (starts on F) which moves across 3 strings using frets 1 and 3 which puts me at the top of the neck and the last two notes I am practicing the hammer on technique. I'm guessing the pain is coming from the stretching (small hands) but is that right? I just want to be sure what I'm experiencing is normal. Any other thoughts?

2. What should the wrist angle be between the hand and arm? At the top of the neck as in above, my wrist angle is slightly less than 90 degrees if I want to keep all my fingers off the strings except the one I'm playing. This seems to be wrong to me but I'm not sure how to get my fingers over to the E string and play other notes on other strings without the rest of my fingers/hand touching strings . (Hope that makes sense) Also, the muscles in my forarms feel like they've been worked out.

3. When high on the neck, my fingers are not exactly perpendicular to the strings but more like a 30-40 degree angle. Is that normal?

4. My pinky tends to feel numb on the tip after about an hour of practice. Given that my pinky is the weakest by far, maybe this is normal until I build up strength.

5. Thumb pressure - I've read there shouldn't be much pressure on the thumb so how do you create enough downward force to keep the string on the fret so it doesn't buzz.

I've just thought of these since my last lesson and most likely they are due to what I am practicing. I haven't noticed before now with just playing scales and octaves. I appreciate the input.

1. Try playing 1-2-4 in lower positions. I have huge hands and I still do that, because it's more comfortable, and if you need to grab the 5th and the minor seventh of a chord, you're not stretching your middle finger to the fifth. 1-2-4 is the way to go.

2. REALLY try to minimize the wrist angle. 90 degrees is going to injure you quickly, possibly permanently if you keep doing it for years. This is another reason to use 1-2-4 fingering. Also, don't worry about covering the strings your not playing with your idle fingers. That's actually desirable because it eliminates sympathetic ringing of those strings.

3. You can do pretty much whatever works for you, as long as you don't sink back into that nasty wrist curve.

4. Numb? No, that's not normal. That's the nerve getting pinched off at the wrist, again going back to the wrist curve.

5. You don't want to clamp down to hard. It's hard on the muscles in your hand, and limits dexterity. A lot of this has to do with the setup of your instrument. 99% of bass players use WAY more force than they need to, and they also use instruments that are very badly set up. Even otherwise good techs get this wrong, many assume that the bass needs relief and high string height. This is back-asswards. As long as your bass has reasonable fretwork and an untwisted neck, you should be able to set your neck flat, and set your strings to a comfortable string height. I don't understand why the VAST majority of bassists are okay with letting their instruments wreck their technique and muscles with too much relief.