Relying too much on shapes

[jamisonsalamand]

One issue I have with my playing, and I feel like a lot of bass players might as well, is that I rely too much on knowing patterns across the neck. I could play any scale in any key through as many octaves as my instrument would allow, because i know the pattern across the fretboard.

I feel my knowledge of notes in scales and notes of certain chords, as well as the position of notes higher up on the fretboard (past the twelfth fret, mainly) is severely lacking because I don't have to know the notes in a scale as well as a saxophone player for example.

Maybe my dilemma description isn't making much sense because I lack a better way to describe it, but one way I've been trying to work on this is practicing through songs from the Real Book, and just playing the root of each chord, everywhere possible, with the song on repeat twenty times. I'll usually stick to one position, say seventh to eleventh fret across the strings, and switch to a new one for the next time through the song. Then I do this with thirds, and fifths.

I'm wondering if anyone has any good practice ideas similar to/better than this?

[Shakin-Slim]

I recently tried to get out of the habit of only knowing scale shapes by trying to walk over something with relatively static harmony, such as Miles' So What, and naming each note as I play it, and it's role in the scale (4, 3, 7, flat 5 etc). Static harmony is good because it takes away some of the brain work while you focus on your notes. Just don't miss the half step change

[Billnc]

I walk staying on one string, groups of two strings and finally the whole neck. Also I have found walking very very painfully slowly (so you get my point) so I can think of each note and approaches etc to get through a tune helps. This regardless how well you know it. See, you can walk yourself into a corner, stop and think of a way out that is musical.

I've also done the static harmony thing, and will look for substitutions and back cycling patterns etc. (i.e. over So What's Dm play throw in A7 or some diminished patterns)

[puddin tame]

my brain works better with shapes. who cares if you dont know the note names as well as a sax player? do you play sax?

it is important to know your fretboard though. but i know i think shapes first, then translate to notes if i need to

bass players are lucky. shapes work.

(IMO, im sure dudes on here could write me an essay on why im wrong)

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by puddin tame

my brain works better with shapes. who cares if you dont know the note names as well as a sax player? do you play sax?

it is important to know your fretboard though. but i know i think shapes first, then translate to notes if i need to

bass players are lucky. shapes work.

(IMO, im sure dudes on here could write me an essay on why im wrong)

Gary Willis swears by them, and while my post seems against it shapes get me out of trouble quite often. They also allow you to hear what you are playing. There is a freedom, if you know the grid and can sing it and play the note just by putting a finger down.

[Russell L]

Well, maybe it's just me, but it seems there comes a time when you can just play by shapes and only think of note names to keep you on the right root for the changes. I never think of the names of every note I play, although I'm constantly aware of them. I mean, at any instant , if you were freez-frame my playing and ask what that note is, I know it, of course. Or if you want me to write it out, I can. Or...even if you want me to say them as I play, I can, but I don't want to, nor do I need to. I guess what I'm treying to say is, I know what's going on, so it doesn't matter. I'm the same way on guitar and keys.

BUT, yes, if you don't know your fingerboard, I guess whatever you wanna do to learn it is good. You should know it. By the way, I hate playing above the octave, and seldom do, maybe up to the 15th once in awhile. It's mostly for a solo, though.

[Skitch it!]

Think in chord tones, not shapes.

Willis uses shapes primarily in relation to the symmetry of the board to transfer melodic ideas over range, they certainly aren't the basis of his ideas, he's thinking in chord tones and approaches as well as a lot of other flow ideas.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

Think in chord tones, not shapes.

Willis uses shapes primarily in relation to the symmetry of the board to transfer melodic ideas over range, they certainly aren't the basis of his ideas, he's thinking in chord tones and approaches as well as a lot of other flow ideas.

That's where my quote of being able to sing them and play them comes in.

[Dusty89]

There is free ear training software that you can download. Learning the sounds is just as important as learning shapes. For the bass, its much easier learning the sounds than the guitar. With only 12 notes in the chromatic scale, try to to identify each one purely by sound. This will allow you to actually utilize the shapes you know. I've been there myself. I would pick up the bass and move through shapes without "really" anticipating what sound is coming next. By knowing your notes, you can train yourself where to go next.

On a other note. No pun intended. I find that bassists focus too much on playing an exuberant amount of notes. A back and forth shuffle between three notes is all that's needed to keep a heavy groove flowing. As a rock/blues player I just felt like adding that in. I do realize it may not apply to your genre.

[Fergie Fulton]

Thinking in shapes is just a representation and a great one to use.
There is no problem in thinking in shapes, the simple answer is to move on. But to do that requires the strengthm of mind to do so and not go back to what you "trust and know" when the going gets tough. You will always justify to yourself that there is no real difference so why go through the effort of learning something new when what you have functions perfectly for it.

Billnc has it spot on, work different, Skitch it has chord tones which is using shapes with your ears rather than your eyes, shape we call intervals. Shakin-Slim offers you subsitution or alternatives, but you need learn what options you have in order to understand and use them. That in itself will offer new ways of fingering.

Ultimately if you think of it because a standard tuning on a four string bass is in 4ths, you can play chromatically every note from the open E with the fretting hand in one position so the fingers fret F- F#- G- G# (A) Bb-B-C-C# (D) D#-E-F-F#-(G) G#-A-Bb-B. The bracket notes are open strings played without fretting and of course this is one finger one fret.
Then it becomes obvious that to do this without open strings the hand (or fingers) moves either one fret to the left or the right to play the same thing.

Move this idea up the neck to (A). The you have many option to play chromatically the best is across strings so you will notice to play from (A) you fret A-Bb-B-C- then you move back one fret and go to the C# ON THE (A) string to play C#-D-D#- E, then move back one fret and go to the E on the D string...and so on. So if you start andy were on the bass with the room to move back on the next sting you again have chromatics. The same is true going down the scales but the one fret movement is in the opposite direction.

So if you have learned scales/songs in patterns, then use that pattern to move on and break what is just a lazy habit. let you brain see other ideas and stop yourself from going back to what you know and trust..which is the dominant habit of patterns.

As a foot note, it may be you are pre dispossed to working in patterns so do not worry if it is not a problem. If this is just something you think you should be doing then ask yourself why? What are the motivations behind wanting to change..is it just another idea or will the extra hard work pay off? The ideas i offer are there to make anyone think that patterns need not be a hinderance because movement away from them is just one fret left or right. I think patterns are great because they gives a first impression of music that is easy to follow, then it is up to the individual to develop further if the wish.

[kr0n]

I think about root and how the notes around it connect to it as intervals. Oh we're playing C major? Well third is there and fifth there... Bb minor? Minor third is quite near on the same string and, fourth is in the usual spot etc.

If this is wrong I would appreciate some simple practice routines to get out of that rut.

[Russell L]

Contrary to what others think, and with all due respect, I do not see playing with patterns as anything that has to be moved on from, not when the player knows what he's doing. I know the fingerboard forward and backward, know my chords and scales, etc. It's just that I see the patterns and use them in conjunction with what I know. It is NOT a lazy habit, but just a way of perceiving things. If there is anything to move forward it is seeing patterns between patterns, but then again I see that because I know my theory forward and backward, too. I don't want anyone to think that just because they like to use patterns that it is something they should wean themselves off of. Patterns are not a crutch, but rather a tool.

[NorthArchRising]

I believe both should be known, shapes allow early access but quickly make a player resort to the same old same old, if you know your notes and say a D7b5#9 chord pops up at least you'll know that you've got an F# and an Eb to bring into your pattern etc and know where those notes are and the importance (maybe more so for a lead player)

i always think that as long as you can 'hear' where your next note is then whether you know it as its 'correct' name or a three fret/note movement a string below then so be it, at the end of the day its what you hear, wes montgomery was a great example

[Skitch it!]

The real problem I find with relying on patterns is repetition, they are useful to use for ideas and sequencing, but really what you want to be relying on are your ears and hearing stuff in advance before playing it.

Scales/modes/melodic minor modes whatever are spellings but not necessarily musical in themselves, it's how you utilise them that add's musicality. You don't want it to sound like 'lick no1', 'lick no 2' it's a bit too formulaic. Playing in a non repetitive style is hard to get around, I'd locate over just one scale and try to work for 5 min's in that for melodic tension/release, ideas, you do have to force yourself out of 'what you know' to sustain interest a lot more. Everything has it's uses as tools, but everything in it's right place.

I go with the Parker quote with regards to theory, 'Learn everything, then forget it all'.

Getting to the stage where everything is internalised to the point of not even thinking in scales/degrees/relations/ musicality and theory are two different things, rely on your ears, more than your scales.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Russell L

It is NOT a lazy habit, but just a way of perceiving things.

It is a lazy habit, but not a bad one. Musical ruts happen because of bad thinking and that thinking has to change. In the context of the OP he states

One issue I have with my playing, and I feel like a lot of bass players might as well, is that I rely too much on knowing patterns across the neck. I could play any scale in any key through as many octaves as my instrument would allow, because i know the pattern across the fretboard.

To change this habit he has to embrace a change of thinking, if he does not then of the many things it could be, "a lazy habit" is just one of them. If this is so then it has to be seen as such, and if a need to change this is desired then it has to be addressed. As i said i fully support patterns, but i have other musical knowledge to back them up.

I am not the one looking for advice, and would say anyone comfortable with playing in patterns and is happy would not post as the OP did to change their situation.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

It is a lazy habit, but not a bad one. Musical ruts happen because of bad thinking and that thinking has to change. In the context of the OP he states



To change this habit he has to embrace a change of thinking, if he does not then of the many things it could be, "a lazy habit" is just one of them. If this is so then it has to be seen as such, and if a need to change this is desired then it has to be addressed. As i said i fully support patterns, but i have other musical knowledge to back them up.

I am not the one looking for advice, and would say anyone comfortable with playing in patterns and is happy would not post as the OP did to change their situation.

Ah well, in the context of the OP and others who do not have the added knowledge, I see your point. I am like you in that I, too, have the knowledge to back up the patterns I use. before I knew such, I suppose my patterns were in use as the OP, and so I DID move on. But, I still think the patterns are not to be abandoned, of course, after one learns the rest and does not HAVE to depend on them.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Ah well, in the context of the OP and others who do not have the added knowledge, I see your point. I am like you in that I, too, have the knowledge to back up the patterns I use. before I knew such, I suppose my patterns were in use as the OP, and so I DID move on. But, I still think the patterns are not to be abandoned, of course, after one learns the rest and does not HAVE to depend on them.

But the advice is not to abandon patterns because the reality is you can't, but move on. You cannot learn musical ideas from patterns per say, but you can learn musical patterns from music.

I use patterns with every new person i have ever taught, because one a pattern is learned it can be moved all over the bass. Then the musical information can be added to it, then more patterns become available and so on, but only when backed up by sound musical ideas.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by NorthArchRising

I believe both should be known, shapes allow early access but quickly make a player resort to the same old same old, if you know your notes and say a D7b5#9 chord pops up at least you'll know that you've got an F# and an Eb to bring into your pattern etc and know where those notes are and the importance (maybe more so for a lead player)

i always think that as long as you can 'hear' where your next note is then whether you know it as its 'correct' name or a three fret/note movement a string below then so be it, at the end of the day its what you hear, wes montgomery was a great example

There's an Eb in D7b5#9?

[Drifta]

I used to, but now that I know my notes and everything very well, i still find myself not thinking in the notes but in the intervals

I'll be in a G7 chord lets say, and i'll just be finding the 3rd, 5ths, 6ths etc all over the neck. :shrug:

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by dvh

There's an Eb in D7b5#9?

No, there is a flat 5 which is Ab.
Any Eb is the b9 of a say D7b5b9 chord for example.
But the D7b5#9 is, D, F#, Ab, C, E#.