Rock / Metal bass players, need some assistance

[lopxtc]

Hey guys ...

So after starting learning the bass about a year and a half ago I found a local group of guys looking for a bass player and willing to take in a beginner. I met with them last night after some email exchanges and getting a couple audio files from them on their music. Most of the it pretty straight forward patter wise. Typically two or three patterns repeated at various intervals through out the song. Most of the songs are either drop-D or drop-C tuning.

The only problem I have, and honestly its a good thing as I need to learn this, is that they dont write down their songs and while they know the notes they really dont know the length/value of each note. This is a little tough for me as I havent played anyone before so following the lead of the rhythm guitar is a little tough as I dont know what the finger placements look like for the various chords on the guitar. I know that in a lot of cases when he playing single notes that he frets them with his index finger so I try to follow the lead of his fretting hand. Without knowing the value of the notes its get a little touch especially on the longer riffs where they are flying through notes.

Example ... one of the songs the main riff is played;

D - A - D - G - D - F - D - D through eight times, and then on the eight time there is a slide from F to E to continue into the slower verse of E - D - C - B though four times and then back into the riff.

Like I said nothing complicated but with them flying notes so fast in the riff, Im thinking that my best bet is to just lay down an equally fast bass line on just the root ... but wanted to get some input from other players in this genre.

Apologize ahead of time if this question is quite noobish ...

Thanks,

Aaron

[Bob the bassist]

Following the root is probably your best starting place. Even after 25+ years, I still use the roots as my first approximation to a new tune, as I imagine most of us do. Once you've got the roots down, you're free to step further out and start throwing in ornaments.

[Siegy]

Originally Posted by Bob the bassist

Following the root is probably your best starting place. Even after 25+ years, I still use the roots as my first approximation to a new tune, as I imagine most of us do. Once you've got the roots down, you're free to step further out and start throwing in ornaments.

+1000000. When my guitarist is explaining a new song he wrote to me, I just ask for the root notes and I build my bassline from that.

[GianGian]

The thing with riffs is that you have to double them. 99% of the times it is what works best. An alternative is playing some notes that will funciton as chords beneath the riffs, but it doesn't sound as heavy and agressive, so just double the guitar and be creative on the quieter parts of the songs.

[Deluge Of Sound]

Originally Posted by GianGian

The thing with riffs is that you have to double them. 99% of the times it is what works best. An alternative is playing some notes that will funciton as chords beneath the riffs, but it doesn't sound as heavy and agressive, so just double the guitar and be creative on the quieter parts of the songs.

Can I have a copy of the 10 commandments of Metal/Hard Rock bass playing?

I mean, you've obviously got one, since you know that you have to double any and all riffs.

[Bob the bassist]

Originally Posted by Deluge Of Sound

Can I have a copy of the 10 commandments of Metal/Hard Rock bass playing?

I mean, you've obviously got one, since you know that you have to double any and all riffs.

For heavier types of music, he's basically right. Exaggerated, maybe; I'd say more like 75%-80%, but as a rule of thumb it's valid. Knowing when to break the rules comes with experience. The OP states his inexperience, so we don't try to load him down with every 'what if' and 'but then' that he's not prepared for.

[Deluge Of Sound]

It also depends on your definition of "heavier."

If you're into the Nile/Deicide/Behemoth type stuff, then you're right, but if the dude is playing something like Kyuss or Sleep, then that advice is going to make the music sound real dull.

[lopxtc]

I would consider this stuff some akin to early Metallica ... talking the club scene Metallica, before making it big.

I've been looking through some music books on Metallica and looking at how Burton and Newsted constructed their lines. Alot of shadowing the guitar and playing together. Which seems along the riff's to fit best with this music. The are points in some of the songs, where the temp drops for a few bars (in this song the E - D - C - B section), where I have been playing around with making the bass line more than just enforcing the guitar and so far it sounds good.

The general feel I am getting here, at least in my early state, is to model after the guitar. Jam out the notes where he is, and then slow it down and extend them in places where he is also.

Thanks so far everyone for the advice ... maybe I might actually make it good at this LOL.

Aaron

[Iv@N]

When the guitarist of my band shows the band a new riff or something i get the main concept and play the roots during the rehearsal, after that i go home and check the riff again and change the bass line to give it much more power (trying many different variations of course)

[GianGian]

Originally Posted by Deluge Of Sound

Can I have a copy of the 10 commandments of Metal/Hard Rock bass playing?

I mean, you've obviously got one, since you know that you have to double any and all riffs.

Calm down.

[tomas_almeida]

Originally Posted by Iv@N

When the guitarist of my band shows the band a new riff or something i get the main concept and play the roots during the rehearsal, after that i go home and check the riff again and change the bass line to give it much more power (trying many different variations of course)

I do this also, but instead of rooting I follow the guitars' riffs the first time I listen to a new one.

I play thrash metal and NO, YOU DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW THE GUITARS IN METAL 99% OF THE TIME.

If you lack creativity of feel insecure about your playing that's what you'll end up doing, of course.

I could give a hell lot of examples on bass players that don't follow the guitars.

There are certain parts where it sounds better, technically complex parts need to be approached this way or the band will sound sloppy.

But with slower/less complex riffs you can do lots of fills, it sounds f**king great (if done properly)!!

[Deluge Of Sound]

Originally Posted by GianGian

Calm down.

Just pointing out that there's more than one way to approach anything, lest the guy asking questions was lead to believe otherwise.

[GianGian]

Originally Posted by Deluge Of Sound

Just pointing out that there's more than one way to approach anything, lest the guy asking questions was lead to believe otherwise.

Just don't be so rude...disagree, but with class. Make an intelligent argument.

[Deluge Of Sound]

I didn't think it was particularly rude, but, uh, I can see how the italics might have pushed you over the edge. If I wanted to be rude, I would have made some sort of cutting remark about how you expect me to be intelligent while misspelling "function" and "aggressive" in your original post.


But that would be rude of me, not to mention totally off topic.

[Arpeggiator]

sticking to the root is good to enforce heaviness in a sort of thrash or rock style, but dont do that the whole song, you will get bored, play around with it, but where you feel you need to drive it foward stick to the roots.

as for following the guitars i do this for more death style since i have palyed tech death stuff the riffs are pretty hard going as it is so putting more on to an already complex riff can make it muddy sounding. do love messing around with tough rhythms and just tough basslines in general

[GianGian]

Originally Posted by Deluge Of Sound

I didn't think it was particularly rude, but, uh, I can see how the italics might have pushed you over the edge. If I wanted to be rude, I would have made some sort of cutting remark about how you expect me to be intelligent while misspelling "function" and "aggressive" in your original post.


But that would be rude of me, not to mention totally off topic.

If you think that your post was polite it is ok for me, I won't try to convince you it was not. My opinion, your opinion.

[mutedeity]

Honestly, I think this whole "metal" approach to music is kind of silly. "Metal" is like any other kind of music. How you approach it has to do with what you are trying to accomplish and what the music allows. There is no set rulebook for what you can and can't do. If you think playing "metal" means playing "root notes" then do that. There are quite a number of bass players that do not play just the "root notes" all the time. It really comes down to what you are doing in context. I think the key to being an interesting bass player in a "metal" context is to not just think in terms of "metal".

[LifeIsBass]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

I think the key to being an interesting bass player in a "metal" context is to not just think in terms of "metal".

Well said. While doubling the guitar is certainly appropriate at times, I generally find it boring to play and boring to listen to. I've always been fond of metal bands that use the bass to add another dimension to the music. To me, that requires going outside of what the guitar is doing. I've always been stumped by bands that have the bass double the guitar and bury the bass in the mix. I mean, what's the point? There's no worth in even having a bassist when that's done IMO.

[Kheos]

I think the ultimate metal bass player is the guy(or hot girl) who knows when to follow the guitar and when to go into another direction.
Some metal riffs are so powerfull, so solid, so easy yet pounding that a melodic bass solo would not be in place (IMHO). And then there are more laid back metal riffs just screaming for some nice fat bass licks, tricks, fills, riffs...

[WhiteKnuckles]

Here's a question to the OP....what is the drummer doing?

If he is accenting the beat with the guitarist, or in many cases getting double-kick happy, you may as well try to double up.

Now, if he's creating something of his own...listen to that and try to fall in with him. Think of yourself as the bridge between the drums and guitars. If you want to start simple...root note with his kick and throw in an occasional octave, 3rd, or 5th with the snare while maybe doubling the guitarist when when it feels right.

Sure it's nothing fancy and not the way many guys approach "metal" bass, but done in the right songs, it can create a throbbing, driving monster.